New Production/Mix Room Treatment

[ryangeller]

I'm about to move into a new apt, and I think that I will use a 8.6'x12'x22' living room as my studio.

The space seems to just make it into the Newman Bolt Beranek acceptable ratios grid.

I am planning on treating as many corners as possible (where 3 walls meet) w/ bass traps, and was actually also thinking of an angled cloud w/ 4" thick 703 above the mix position (may also install lights in the fiberglass for aesthetic reasons). Will also put tritraps above mix position and above couch (opposite wall) where 2 walls meet.

I will also treat the first reflection points and put diffusion on the opposite wall (above a couch) and between the monitors.

I will orient the room so that the width is more than the length for ergonomic reasons and to minimize first reflections from the walls (on the left will be the windows looking out to a courtyard)

Questions:

1- I tried doing an axial analysis of the room dimensions, but not quite sure how to interpret the data; are there any areas frequency wise that I need to be aware of that will build up

2- Will a tuned absorber or resonator target these issues more efficiently (cost, space, aesthetics)

3- Will my cloud idea be of any benefit? It will be angled so that the farthest edge from the mix wall is on the ceiling, the closest edge will be about 1.5' below the ceiling (don't have my exact math in front of me now)

4- Area rug or no area rug/ carpeting (also keep in mind STC to the neighbors below, although I'm aware that this will only affect the highs which usually aren't a problem)

5- Monitors will most likely be barefoot mm27, and will have to be placed very close to the wall on stands which will be behind an argosy dual 15 console (will put foam on the reverse of console @ any reflection points to minimize down to 1k where the waves are more directional- does this make sense, or is it just a waste



I have not signed the lease yet, which is why I don't have exact drawings or dimensions -- would just like to get an idea of what I'm getting into here if I take this apt...

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by ryangeller

I will orient the room so that the width is more than the length for ergonomic reasons and to minimize first reflections from the walls (on the left will be the windows looking out to a courtyard)

I wouldn't do that. See this:

How to set up a room

Early reflections are simple to treat. Bass problems are much more difficult. So always optimize the layout for the best bass response.

1- I tried doing an axial analysis of the room dimensions, but not quite sure how to interpret the data; are there any areas frequency wise that I need to be aware of that will build up

Unless you plan to change the room dimensions, a mode analysis is not helpful. The room is what it is, and all you can do is treat it.

2- Will a tuned absorber or resonator target these issues more efficiently (cost, space, aesthetics)

No, a room this size benefits most from broadband absorption.

3- Will my cloud idea be of any benefit? It will be angled so that the farthest edge from the mix wall is on the ceiling, the closest edge will be about 1.5' below the ceiling (don't have my exact math in front of me now)

I wouldn't bother angling a cloud unless you like the look.

--Ethan

[Weasel9992]

I'll just second everything Ethan said....orient lengthwise and treat the low end first. Go with broadband and not tuned absorption for a room like that...it'll be far, far less expensive and you'll see more impact acoustically.

The only thing I'm confused about is your question about the carpet..I'm just not sure what you wanted to know there...it'll do nothing in terms of isolation, really. I mean, it might attenuate the high end a little bit, but your walls and floor will take care of that far more efficiently. Area rugs might make the room a little less live though, if that's what you wanted.

Frank

[ryangeller]

[IMG][/IMG]

I want to put the couch against the kitchen wall and the console across from it so that

1- I don't have glass in front of my mix position
2- The AC window unit isn't obstructed
3- I can use the studio as a living room still and watch movies from the couch
4- I don't have to have a couch in the middle of the room, thus cutting off my space

I plan to do lots of broadband bass absorption, but are there any areas that will be substantially worse than others because of the dimensions of this room?

Will the cloud do anything, or will it just be design? (I also plan on hiding tritrap type bass absorption behind the cloud @ the wall/ceiling corner) If it's stuffed w/ material would that help me out w/ broadband absorption? How about diffusion away from the mix position?

I know that some some buildings require their tenants to cover X amount of the floor w/ carpet or rugs so that the lower neighbors aren't disturbed by footsteps and talking etc. That's why I brought it up. I suppose that if the low end goes though the floor anyway then the point is moot. In a small room like this, would it make sense to do some high frequency absorption w/ a carpet or rugs since I'll be employing so many low end absorbers?

Also, I anticipate needing to do something to the front door to my apt to make it more massive so that I'm not loud in the hallway. Any temporary solutions? I can't do anything that cannot be removed when I leave in 2 or 3 years... I was thinking 6" bass trap on it, but this still won't "plug the hole"

Lastly, are those rubber isolation pucks which are used for floating floors available in small quantity to be place underneith my monitor stands, sub, etc for decoupling?

Thanks for the responses.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by ryangeller

I want to put the couch against the kitchen wall and the console across from it so that

1- I don't have glass in front of my mix position
2- The AC window unit isn't obstructed
3- I can use the studio as a living room still and watch movies from the couch
4- I don't have to have a couch in the middle of the room, thus cutting off my space

1.) You'd be better off with the glass in front of your position, but oriented lengthwise. The glass is easy to deal with.
2.) I don't see the AC unit in the drawing...is it in the window your desk would be facing? If so, can you face the opposite wall so that the window becomes the back of the room?
3.) I hear you on this one, but acoustically it's a pretty big compromise to orient down the width. You'll have to do *a lot* more treatment this way.
4.) Dual purpose spaces are tough, but 12' is wide enough that a couch wouldn't really cut the living room in half. It wouldn't be too awkward to walk in from the foyer and see the living room set up that way.

Originally Posted by ryangeller

I plan to do lots of broadband bass absorption, but are there any areas that will be substantially worse than others because of the dimensions of this room?

The room is pretty typical, so you get the standard answer: the rear corners, front corners, rear wall and wall/ceiling corners. If you hit all of those areas you'll solve 85% of the issues.

Originally Posted by ryangeller

Will the cloud do anything, or will it just be design? (I also plan on hiding tritrap type bass absorption behind the cloud @ the wall/ceiling corner) If it's stuffed w/ material would that help me out w/ broadband absorption? How about diffusion away from the mix position?

Getting treatment all the way into the corners would be great. I'd go with broadband absorption before you do any diffusion at all. I don't think it's the right solution for a room like that in most cases. For instance, you'll be better off with absorbtion rather than diffusion between the monitors. On the wall behind the mix position I'd want to use your wall space for bass traps, which will solve a bigger problem than diffusion would.

Originally Posted by ryangeller

I know that some some buildings require their tenants to cover X amount of the floor w/ carpet or rugs so that the lower neighbors aren't disturbed by footsteps and talking etc. That's why I brought it up. I suppose that if the low end goes though the floor anyway then the point is moot. In a small room like this, would it make sense to do some high frequency absorption w/ a carpet or rugs since I'll be employing so many low end absorbers?

Oh...I've never heard of that. Some high frequency absorption is almost always a good idea, especially at first/second reflection points, above drums kits, etc. In a multipurpose room I think a balanced approach is best.

Originally Posted by ryangeller

Also, I anticipate needing to do something to the front door to my apt to make it more massive so that I'm not loud in the hallway. Any temporary solutions? I can't do anything that cannot be removed when I leave in 2 or 3 years... I was thinking 6" bass trap on it, but this still won't "plug the hole"

Nope, sure won't. I assume that this is a solid-core door...that'll be about as much as you can do unless you guy a studio door for about $3,000.

Originally Posted by ryangeller

Lastly, are those rubber isolation pucks which are used for floating floors available in small quantity to be place underneith my monitor stands, sub, etc for decoupling?

I don't know where you'd be able to find just a few. Just buy couple of MoPads.


Whew...that was a lot. Let me know if I missed anything!

Frank

[ryangeller]

So attached are some pictures showing the placement of my bass traps and a 1/48th octave smoothing graph.

My couch comes in on Wednesday which will probably affect the room a bit. Also, I'm currently using Event monitors and a KRK sub for this test- although I will be using Barefoots w/out a sub shortly. First reflection point panels have not been mounted yet- and are currently hanging out behind my console against the front wall for convenience.

Imaging is already a lot nicer than my old room, but I am a bit concerned w/ what's going on between 55 and 80hz, and around 300hz.

Of course I'll have to measure again once I have a couch, rug, and those panels mounted, but what can/should I be doing about that low end and the 300 range?

[avare]

The LF peaks are probably location dependent and a result of the 8'6" and 12' dimensions. Move the mic and see what happens.

Andre

[ryangeller]

Moved the mic around the room a bit, and my initial placement seems to be the smoothest, albeit that 50-80 region.

Placement wise- I'm listening around that 38% area, and the console, monitors, and listening position pretty much need to stay in their current position (can maybe move 2-3 inches).

Can this be remedied w/ more room treatment? Perhaps a tuned helmholtz resonator on he back wall? I'll have room on the front wall/floor corner for 2 more tritraps if necessary.

here is another analysis- exciting the room a little more, and zoomed in to better see the problem area:



Also, I have 4 Auralex T'Fusors available to mount. Would these be beneficial for the high end? Mounted on the ceiling between the mix position and future couch?

[ryangeller]

bump

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by ryangeller

Can this be remedied w/ more room treatment?

Yes.

Also, I have 4 Auralex T'Fusors available to mount. Would these be beneficial for the high end? Mounted on the ceiling between the mix position and future couch?

I'm not a fan of diffusion or deflection at reflection points. Absorption is the way to go IMO.

--Ethan

[ryangeller]

Okay, so I added 5 more 6" traps to my back wall, and 2 triangle traps to the front wall/floor corner.

I have pretty much all my my furniture in the room now, however have still not mounted the mid frequency absorbers @ the first reflection points.

I adjusted the level, crossover, and polarity of my sub to achieve the flattest result...

Below are pictures of the back and front wall and the new graph.

To reiterate, my room is 23'x12'8.5'. I am facing the 12' wall, sitting about 38% off that wall, and have experimented with slightly moving my listening position.

The back wall has six 6" deep 4x2' traps, along with stacked tritraps in the corners. The front wall as the same tritraps, in addition to two on the front wall/floor joint.


The additional traps seem to have helped a little bit to smooth things out above 100hz, but are doing very little to remedy my previous problems.

What is my next move? Cloud, resonator, eq? I'd really like to nail this down. It doesn't seem like grossly adding more traps is going to help me at all.

The peak at 75hz can probably be treated with a tuned trap or resonator, but how do I tackle the null @ 60hz and and 325?

[ryangeller]

uploads are failing so will try a different browser

[ryangeller]

[ryangeller]

[ryangeller]

here is the front of my room:

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by ryangeller

What is my next move?

Traps in as many wall-ceiling corners as you can manage.

--Ethan

[bpape]

I just spoke with Frank about this. The null you have is pretty wide and has 2 distinct different frequencies involved looking at the plot. Not knowing 100% about the situation, my gut tells me that it's a phase issue between the sub and the mains (assuming there is a sub and that the mains are still running full range or that the xover slope is too shallow)

If there's not a sub involved, then my gut tells me it's potentially an SBIR issue due to the monitors proximity to the wall behind them coupled with some ringing and cancellations in the window well. That's easy enough to try by moving a couple of the panels up behind the monitors and also covering a bit of the window well.

Frank is going to call you shortly to discuss. Like I said, I'm just working off gut feel without knowing all of the specifics of the room.

Bryan

[ryangeller]

No sub, and sub only

Will try stacking some traps in the window well now...

Frank- got your voicemail and will be calling in a few.

[ryangeller]

Also, I will not be using these monitors and/or sub when working. My MM27s are still on backorder, so just wanted to try to get the room fairly tuned/ or under control so that I can just do some small tweaks when they arrive.

[bpape]

Well, that's pretty clear then. The double bottom we're seeing in the overall is repeated 1 at a time in those 2 plots.

First thing I'd definitely do is cut off the mains if you're going to continue to use a sub in the new setup. No need to double the lower frequencies - can only cause problems.

Now, we just need to deal with the sub. Have you tried moving it at all in relation to the front wall and/or side walls? Where is it in relation to those? These are the same things Frank is going to ask you but just getting them out in the thread as part of the process.

Bryan

[ryangeller]

Here is a plot w/ the 242 panels covering as much of the window as possible w/out mounting..

[ryangeller]

Originally Posted by bpape

Well, that's pretty clear then. The double bottom we're seeing in the overall is repeated 1 at a time in those 2 plots.

First thing I'd definitely do is cut off the mains if you're going to continue to use a sub in the new setup. No need to double the lower frequencies - can only cause problems.

Now, we just need to deal with the sub. Have you tried moving it at all in relation to the front wall and/or side walls? Where is it in relation to those? These are the same things Frank is going to ask you but just getting them out in the thread as part of the process.

Bryan

I won't be using the sub @ the same time as the mains w/ the new set up. I will however keep the sub in the room as to check mixes on it just to hear the low end

[ryangeller]

So just spent a good amount of time w/ Frank's assistance moving some things around.

We moved the sub from behind my console to the side of it. Also lowered the crossover frequency- although it's a pretty cheap KRK sub so who really knows what's going on w/ it...

We also moved some 6" traps from the back wall to the side and that sounded a lot better to me, although was a bit asymmetrical since I didn't have anything on the right wall due to gear.


We're going to wait until my new monitors arrive and then assess from there..

Thinking about maybe a few more 6" traps for the side walls, and then possibly some ceiling treatment- but it may not be necessary.


Here is the most recent graph:




Again, thanks to everyone for the assistance (Frank from GIK especially) and will update the thread once the rest of my gear arrives.

[bpape]

Well, the bass dip is a lot better down low. Still have some things going on. Have to figure out the new one around 110Hz.

If you're going to run the new ones full range with no sub, we'll likely need to play around again and find the right place for them to smooth the response.

Bryan