SE Reflection filter

[Tube World]

I have a treated studio with bass traps, and panels, and decided on trying out this filter for vocals and wanted to share my conclusions.

Like many others, I found it pretty heavy. I had to slide the rod all the way forward to help keep in steady on a decent mic stand. I found when I sang into it, I still heard some reflections off the walls in my studio. The good news is, the reflections did not go into my mic but were only in the studio. Bottom line, this filter is great and it worked very well with vocals, and even a guitar amp. Pushing a mic too far in gives a very dry sound which I didn't like. However when you have the mic just inside the filter, you can get very good results. I got the best results with a panel behind the singer and the SE filter in front of the singer. I am buying another one as many times I have 2 singers sing at the same time in my studio.

Good job SE on your reflection filter.

[kincept]

would this give a bigger sound to the vocals? I sing in a walk in closet? would it help? FYI RAP < SPOKEN WORD>

[peeder]

What it does is actually makes a smaller sound on the vocals, but clearer, and you can then be free to make it bigger with reverbs etc. You give something up on the track but make it back in spades on the mix.

I have 2.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Tube World

I have a treated studio with bass traps, and panels, and decided on trying out this filter for vocals and wanted to share my conclusions.

Like many others, I found it pretty heavy. I had to slide the rod all the way forward to help keep in steady on a decent mic stand. I found when I sang into it, I still heard some reflections off the walls in my studio. The good news is, the reflections did not go into my mic but were only in the studio. Bottom line, this filter is great and it worked very well with vocals, and even a guitar amp. Pushing a mic too far in gives a very dry sound which I didn't like. However when you have the mic just inside the filter, you can get very good results. I got the best results with a panel behind the singer and the SE filter in front of the singer. I am buying another one as many times I have 2 singers sing at the same time in my studio.

Good job SE on your reflection filter.

Thanks for taking the time to post your review. Do you have any with and without wav files (mp3s) you could post? I really would like to hear the sound with the mic pushed back more as I have read that it causes a bit of comb filtering when done this is done.

Glenn

[Lagerfeldt]

We did what I would call an extensive test (three tests actually, in two different studios) on my Danish sound tech forum, Lydmaskinen. I don't know if sound clips still exist online but perhaps I can make them available again.

The sE Reflexion filter is not very useful in my opinion, not for any of the tests. Actually it seemed to do quite a bit of comb filtering very easily. Like Glenn mentioned above.

In test 1 (the untreated room) much better solutions exist (panels), even though they all do take up a bit more space. It wasn't possible for the filter to replace even moderate amounts of regular treatment with panels in a room. Buy or build panels for the same amount and you're most likely a lot better off, even though it does take up more space. If space is an issue perhaps the filter could be a backup solution or part of a solution if you're willing to compromise on sound quality.

In test 2 (the treated room) it only seemed to make things worse. All recordings were better without the filter, no matter the distance or setting. So no improvement there, but quite the opposite in fact. The comb filtering was quite evident, at all distances.

In test 3 (treated room, but different studio): same result as in test 2.

A lot of people claim it a bogus product and compare it to this but I wouldn't go that far. I'd never buy or use one myself though.

[kubimusik]

Just tried the SE Reflexion Filter for a vocal session in a typical small project studio and have to say, it makes a noticeable difference for the better.

I made sure to use it exactly as instructed (mic centered relative to the SE on vertical and horizontal axis, membrane flush with the front edge of the SE) and it does indeed focus the sound substantially, without any of the muffled low-end problems caused when I tried to minimize the room effect by creating 'vocal booths' using foam or blankets around the singer. (Plus it also keeps the singer from becoming claustrophobic inside a makeshift foam tent...)

The only thing I added was a little absorption above the singer on the ceiling, to get rid of the worst early reflections from there.

I'm sure it's still better to simply record in an acoustically perfect space without having to worry about garbage entering the back of the mic, but my guess is, that's not what the reflexion filter was built for - it's intended to minimize the effect of less desirable spaces on recordings, and I find it does so very well.

Anyway, I'm keeping mine. Great product.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[dangoudie]

I've got one and I agree mounting it is problematic.

However, the sound is great in an untreated room. My room is S**T but using the reflexion thingy it totally removes all the garbage. It's perfect for my because I do on location recording too so I have a mobile vocal booth.

If your studio is already beautifully acoustically designed then you don't need this but they're not aiming at that market. I over dub vocals in my bedroom and it really lets a good mic shine. I use an SE Gemini mkII with the diaphragm level with the edges of the filter.

One poor design is the straight lines of the panelling because you get quite a bit of bass build up at the back but as long as you don't plunge the mic in too far it doesn't matter.

I've seen them used on OH mics but the recording I heard didn't sound very nice. The rest of the track was fine but the cymbals were very harsh. Dunno if that's just a bad mix though.

[Svens]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

A lot of people claim it a bogus product and compare it to this but I wouldn't go that far. I'd never buy or use one myself though.

You are the first one I heard about this.

[Tube World]

Don't tell Bono the SE Reflection filter is not good, he loves it. U2.com | Highlights Note that they put the mic just inside the lip of the filter which I found does not cause any negative comb effect. I read a quote that Stevie Wonder likes it too.

[peeder]

I'm posting this to remind myself to do the comb filtration test (not hard, just run pink noise into the room and wave the mic around)...

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by peeder

I'm posting this to remind myself to do the comb filtration test (not hard, just run pink noise into the room and wave the mic around)...

I already measured the frequency response of a microphone inside the RF:



--Ethan

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I already measured the frequency response of a microphone inside the RF:

--Ethan

You don't mention a protocol... I generally only consider plots that I can 100% reproduce.

I'll do the comb filtering test this week when I get a second.

[warhead]

When I do use mine, I also use it with the mic extended out pretty much as far as it will go from the filter itself. It does tighten up the sound, using with a cardioid mic I've had no issues and many times prefer the sound and when I do I hit the red button.

War

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I already measured the frequency response of a microphone inside the RF:

--Ethan

Hey Ethan are you the Dr. Evil of acoustic treatment? Just kidding!

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by warhead

When I do use mine, I also use it with the mic extended out pretty much as far as it will go from the filter itself. It does tighten up the sound, using with a cardioid mic I've had no issues and many times prefer the sound and when I do I hit the red button.

War

Ditto, you can use the mic outside the enclosure and it will still help. You can also angle the mic off the centerline outside the enclosure and it still kills much of a bad room.

Also, if you're having severe trouble with ceiling reflections, try draping a towel across the top with the mic in the clear out front. You'll probably get a plot worse than Ethan's but if you're sufficiently desperate....

3rd&4thT

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by peeder

You don't mention a protocol... I generally only consider plots that I can 100% reproduce.

Sorry, I should have linked to the full test with photos etc. Here it is:

RealTraps - Portable Vocal Booth

Scroll down a bit to the test details.

--Ethan

[warhead]

Ethan, no offense but your test should also include a shot of a vocalist still being able to visually communicate with his / her band while tracking. You state that you and your partner noticed obvious coloration with the sE filter, and the closer you place the mic to anything the more coloration you're going to hear, and you used an OMNI mic for your tests (which is fine, but a real world test is using a cardioid mic on a vocal and not an OMNI mic on a speaker in your living room). I guess your tests are valid in their own informal way, but it's not how the products are being used.

I have always preferred the sound of the sE with the CARDIOID mic being fully extended away from the filter. I even have success using figure 8 ribbons in the same position on loud guitar cabs.

I think a great visual demonstration of the value of the sE Electronics Reflexion Filter is the video featuring Bono linked earlier in this thread. It sounds great and you can see everyone else in the room while using it. With all due respect to Stevie Wonder, yes he endorses the Reflexion filter but obviously experiences only an audible improvement and rather cannot benefit from visual communication since he is blind.

I think it's great you were inspired to create a "me too" product by sE, and you took their design in a different direction that to me isn't necessarily "better" for all situations. It is what it is, and both products fill a need differently.

War

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Hey Ethan are you the Dr. Evil of acoustic treatment? Just kidding!

He would need a "mini me"






Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by warhead

you used an OMNI mic for your tests (which is fine, but a real world test is using a cardioid mic on a vocal and not an OMNI mic on a speaker in your living room).

I think you miss an important point. The vocal examples were all recorded with a cardioid microphone as per convention. The coloration you hear is with a cardioid. The microphone was not pushed all the way into the sE filter, but it wasn't pulled all the way out either because the microphone stand would have tipped over from the weight and lack of balance.

Acoustic tests must be done with an omni microphone for various reasons I can elaborate on if needed. Also, the acoustic tests were not done in a living room, but in my large (33 by 18 foot) studio.

Also Warren, everyone here knows that I am the manufacturer of the RealTraps Portable Vocal Booth. But it's not clear in your posts or sig that you sell the sE Reflexion Filter as well as acoustic treatment products made by at least three other companies that compete with RealTraps. The tone of your post ("you were inspired to create a 'me too' product") is unfair and inappropriate without providing that full disclosure. Calling RealTraps "me too" is especially unfair given that all four of the other acoustic companies you represent (and some others you don't represent) have all copied RealTraps in one way or another. So please, let's keep this discussion to the facts, and make sure any affiliation is perfectly clear for all to see. I say this with the utmost respect for you and your company.

--Ethan

[warhead]

Ethan, I assumed since sE was first to market with this product and you followed with yours and use the sE as the benchmark that it is a "me too" product (which all I'm saying is, you realized doh! there's a market for this) so didn't think that was unfair.

A short search on my site and you'll see sE Electronics for sale, I can't link every manufacturer I deal with in my sig.

I understand the omni testing, I'm saying that your simple plot post doesn't tell near the whole story of why one device might still out perform the other in certain instances. I don't doubt your testing: I'm saying in real life I have no issues using the filter correctly (with a $24.95 On Stage Stands MS7701B on Friday to track vocals, mic fully extended in a shock mount, no tipping). I don't know what stand you're using but, the cheapo works for me when needed!

I have respect for you and your company as well, hope you didn't take my post as some kind of extreme opposition. But there is more to the story from both sides. Dropping that plot in there wasn't exactly a black and white answer for anybody so I responded.

War

[Tube World]

Hey, just use what works for you. If you get a comb effect, then use another type of vocal booth, the one Realtraps has probably is great. if you find the SE Reflection filter works for you, use it. There is no reason to ague and for someone to tell you your wrong in using it or it makes the recordings sound worse. All that matters is you are happy.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by warhead

Ethan, I assumed since sE was first to market with this product and you followed with yours and use the sE as the benchmark that it is a "me too" product (which all I'm saying is, you realized doh! there's a market for this) so didn't think that was unfair.

I understand, and I really don't want to blow this out of proportion. But just to be clear, we had this at least two years before the sE filter came out:

[warhead]

It's not blown out of proportion, but that is standard gobo type of positioning that has been used for decades. I like that sE put it into a single piece, convenient stand mounted form. Several companies followed sE quickly with similar devices also.

I sent you a PM also Ethan. I just want everyone to know it's not like I'm angry etc, but I feel there are things to consider with the sE also (which yes I am a dealer for) that don't have to do with a plot alone. Like Tube World said, it's all in what works best for each of us. I like the sound and visual communication afforded by the Reflexion!

It's all good. thumbsup

War

[peeder]

I just don't have room for the pvb, and while my room is already well-treated, I find the SERF helps dry out the vocal like I said and allow me more creative reverb use at mix time.

I imagine the larger pvb is more effective per dollar, provided you have the space (and no one needs to see over or around the thing.

[rarseman]

Ok
I can clear this little mess
I have both SE reflection filter and 3 mini traps on mic stand; they both work together excellent.

Now someone needs to come out with a light version like SE so I can mic a double bass/guitar with a TLM 49/R121

[warhead]

Welcome to sE Electronics

[rarseman]

saw that
doesnt help since the mic is shoved in the hole...

Originally Posted by warhead

Welcome to sE Electronics

[warhead]

Oops, I didn't take into consideration the mic you mentioned...

See, new product opportunity!

War

[peeder]

Now the "IRF" (mini-SERF) I think is worthless.

[warhead]

Never used it, can't comment.

What did you try it on Peeder?

War