ready trap bags: sag?

No disrespect meant to the acoustics dudes, but I'm trusting Owens Corning's data.

If I buy the product from them. I expect their numbers to be valid.

I've seen you same guys argue this far to many times.


It comes down to one of two options.

1. Trust Ethan's findings

2. Trust Owens Cornings numbers (What is essentially what Joel is saying.


Argument/Debate ended. You choose from the two options above.

[StrykeBack]

Originally Posted by grevan

I feel like I'm watching the 3 biggest guys on the block rumble

Yeah and you have me to thank for that question!

Actually sorry guys I had no idea that was such a hot topic. Must have missed one of the other arguments. Being I'm also looking to upgrade monitors and converters this year...I'l buy the cheaper product for once, 703, and stick with the main manufacturers data. No Disrespect to any of you guys, Though if you guys are gonna throw down, Lets get some webcams up or throw it up on Youtube!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

No disrespect meant to the acoustics dudes, but I'm trusting Owens Corning's data.

If I buy the product from them. I expect their numbers to be valid.

I've seen you same guys argue this far to many times.


It comes down to one of two options.

1. Trust Ethan's findings

2. Trust Owens Cornings numbers (What is essentially what Joel is saying.


Argument/Debate ended. You choose from the two options above.

No disrespect take either. thumbsup

You should trust OCs numbers, I don't think there is any question about that and if there was then sorry if you read that into MY post. The point is there data is only tested to 125hz and it is not tested in a corner. As all the acoustic guys know the numbers will come out much different when placed that way.

Like I said at the beginning there is nothing wrong with oc 703 at all. In my opinion if I was selling both I would just have it tested and if OC703 beat 705 below 125hz then I would not even offer it.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by StrykeBack

Yeah and you have me to thank for that question!

Actually sorry guys I had no idea that was such a hot topic. Must have missed one of the other arguments. Being I'm also looking to upgrade monitors and converters this year...I'l buy the cheaper product for once, 703, and stick with the main manufacturers data. No Disrespect to any of you guys, Though if you guys are gonna throw down, Lets get some webcams up or throw it up on Youtube!

No throw down here and sorry if I even came close to expressing myself that way.


Glenn

[Jeff Juliano]

With all due respect here. Trust your ears. I do and I bought Ready Traps. How many of you guys mixing have time to bust out a calculator and spec sheets to know if you are hearing things right.

Not a hater just giving you guys my 2 cents.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

It comes down to one of two options.
1. Trust Ethan's findings
2. Trust Owens Cornings numbers (What is essentially what Joel is saying.

Did you even read my article? Nobody is suggesting that Owen Corning's data is not valid. It is. It's just not valid for corners, and it's not valid below a few hundred Hz. Please, before you form an opinion, try to understand the issues. It's not as simple as it might seem on the surface!

--Ethan

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Jeff Juliano

With all due respect here. Trust your ears. I do and I bought Ready Traps. How many of you guys mixing have time to bust out a calculator and spec sheets to know if you are hearing things right.

Not a hater just giving you guys my 2 cents.

I am not an acoustician...I bought also ready Traps and my room sounds great, just sent my first 2 mixes from a new album of a very picky artist and producer.....no comments or important suggestions regarding to the mix, balance or anything that can be consecuence of a bad room.....just mute this track in this part ... so they are so happy !! .... so now I will mix the whole album....and one song was mixed by one of Shakira's engineers before myself and they want me to complete all the album!!

So as Jeff said!! use your ears...I am not sure about all those numbers....but from the way my studio sounds and how my mixes translate I can say Ready Traps products are great!!!

[Jax]

I have a small issue relating to readytraps service and products. It's not a big deal, but it was clear that Joel didn't read an email I sent him closely enough. I was disappointed enough to not email him again and force him to look at what he missed in my previous email. The following email also shows what I consider a design problem with 2" readytraps:

Hey Joel,

I bought a bunch of panels and bags from
readyacoustics last year and have a little gripe with
them. The panels can only hang about 4" from the
ceiling because of the slack on the straps. It didn't
bother me at first, but it does now for a couple of
reasons.

I thought I'd be able to hang them 2" without having
to do anything else. That was half my reason for
buying them. Also, that extra 2" down takes up some
overhead real estate over the context of the whole
room. The ceiling without the panels is 8'9".

As for how they perform, well they're doing their job,
but not the way I thought they would. Drums sound
duller but more controlled, so I still have room
issues to work out. I think the room would benefit
from harder surfaces in some places and absorption in
others. I'm not sure how to determine what should be
placed where and how much.

Anyway, if I can make a suggestion - I'd say you could
offer two kinds of bags. The first would be the same
as they are now, the second would have a one small
strap (maybe 1" wide or whatever it takes) at each
corner so that the panels would hang 2" from a
ceiling. If you make these, let me know and I'll ship
back most of my current bags.

Thanks,
Jackson

[neon]

Originally Posted by Jax

I have a small issue relating to readytraps service and products. It's not a big deal, but it was clear that Joel didn't read an email I sent him closely enough. I was disappointed enough to not email him again and force him to look at what he missed in my previous email. The following email also shows what I consider a design problem with 2" readytraps:

Hey Joel,

I bought a bunch of panels and bags from
readyacoustics last year and have a little gripe with
them. The panels can only hang about 4" from the
ceiling because of the slack on the straps. It didn't
bother me at first, but it does now for a couple of
reasons.

I thought I'd be able to hang them 2" without having
to do anything else. That was half my reason for
buying them. Also, that extra 2" down takes up some
overhead real estate over the context of the whole
room. The ceiling without the panels is 8'9".

As for how they perform, well they're doing their job,
but not the way I thought they would. Drums sound
duller but more controlled, so I still have room
issues to work out. I think the room would benefit
from harder surfaces in some places and absorption in
others. I'm not sure how to determine what should be
placed where and how much.

Anyway, if I can make a suggestion - I'd say you could
offer two kinds of bags. The first would be the same
as they are now, the second would have a one small
strap (maybe 1" wide or whatever it takes) at each
corner so that the panels would hang 2" from a
ceiling. If you make these, let me know and I'll ship
back most of my current bags.

Thanks,
Jackson

picky boy!!

[Jax]

Originally Posted by neon

picky boy!!

Yeah, I can see why you might think so. But 2" 703 does its job better when hung 2" from the ceiling. All the research I did prior to buying any acoustic treatment verifies this. Add the 2" lower ceiling real estate in a small room, and the two drawbacks become a problem.

[Jax]

Anyway, here's Joel's reply. The part that bothered me is where he says "consider positioning your hooks (etc) 2" above where you would like the top edge of the panel to rest." That would apply if I was hanging them from the walls, not the ceiling. I guess he didn't have enough time to read my email closely.

Anyway, Joel - if you're reading - I'm not a design expert, but I'd say if you want to redesign or add to your current design, you might experiment with the suggestion I made in the previous email.

Hey Jackson,

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it sincerely as this takes your time to compose and send and your time is valuable.

If we did not do a room set up sketch for you at the time, we would certainly be willing to do it now. If you could get me some pics of the room and/ or a sketch along with the dimensions of the room, we'll fix you right up.

As for hanging, there are a number of different things you can do to get them nearer the ceiling if this is your wish. One thing that works well and easy is to consider positioning your hooks (etc) 2" above where you would like the top edge of the panel to rest.
See our detailed installation guides here: Ready Acoustics - Guides and Manuals for your Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels
Some of these guides are pretty good, but may not address all of the issues you are trying to fix.

I am forwarding this email to Scott as well so we can get his input. In the end, it is your satisfaction that means the most to us, so I hope we can work up a room treatment plan for you (using your existing traps) and get you where you would like to be. If you can send along some of the info I mentioned, that would be great and very helpful. Also, I will take your suggestion about offering a strapping system that you described. In your view, would the bags be able to accommodate the straps as they are now, and the additional straps you mentioned? In your view, how far from the edge would these additional straps need to be in order to be invisible?


My thanks again for your feedback and the opportunity to help get your room in better shape.


Sincerely,

Joel DuBay Sr

[neon]

I think that is right!! but I have a friend that was able to hang panels anyway he wanted...just you have to know how...he had ready traps..sounded great and really I think u may need help o somebody that have the ability to hag stuff..must be tricky but totally possible!!!

and check who is Jeff Juliano!! his advice can be very useul.

Man , Ready Acoustics answer was great! what do u want? nobody will hung up the panels for you...only if you pay it...and if you do not have the ability to do it...call a friend o hire somebody...

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Did you even read my article? Nobody is suggesting that Owen Corning's data is not valid. It is. It's just not valid for corners, and it's not valid below a few hundred Hz. Please, before you form an opinion, try to understand the issues. It's not as simple as it might seem on the surface!

--Ethan

OK I see your point. I'll read the article. Hopefully it will explain why the data changes in a corner. So are you asserting that 703 is better than 705 as per OC's specs until you put them both in a corner?

(I guess I have to read the article first since the questions are probably answered there)

[Jax]

Originally Posted by neon

I think that is right!! but I have a friend that was able to hang panels anyway he wanted...just you have to know how...

Unless I'm wrong, there is no way to hang them 2" from the ceiling without modifying them or hanging something for them to rest on.

Originally Posted by Jax

Anyway, here's Joel's reply. The part that bothered me is where he says "consider positioning your hooks (etc) 2" above where you would like the top edge of the panel to rest." That would apply if I was hanging them from the walls, not the ceiling. I guess he didn't have enough time to read my email closely.

Anyway, Joel - if you're reading - I'm not a design expert, but I'd say if you want to redesign or add to your current design, you might experiment with the suggestion I made in the previous email.

Hey Jackson,

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it sincerely as this takes your time to compose and send and your time is valuable.

If we did not do a room set up sketch for you at the time, we would certainly be willing to do it now. If you could get me some pics of the room and/ or a sketch along with the dimensions of the room, we'll fix you right up.

As for hanging, there are a number of different things you can do to get them nearer the ceiling if this is your wish. One thing that works well and easy is to consider positioning your hooks (etc) 2" above where you would like the top edge of the panel to rest.
See our detailed installation guides here: Ready Acoustics - Guides and Manuals for your Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels
Some of these guides are pretty good, but may not address all of the issues you are trying to fix.

I am forwarding this email to Scott as well so we can get his input. In the end, it is your satisfaction that means the most to us, so I hope we can work up a room treatment plan for you (using your existing traps) and get you where you would like to be. If you can send along some of the info I mentioned, that would be great and very helpful. Also, I will take your suggestion about offering a strapping system that you described. In your view, would the bags be able to accommodate the straps as they are now, and the additional straps you mentioned? In your view, how far from the edge would these additional straps need to be in order to be invisible?


My thanks again for your feedback and the opportunity to help get your room in better shape.


Sincerely,

Joel DuBay Sr

I think the same principal applies on the ceiling. If you want them to not hang as much, put more space between your hooks and stretch the straps a bit to reach the hook. It will take up the slack in the hook and bring the trap closer to the ceiling.

This is 1" closer you're fussing about right

And all of these dudes and their companies know more about acoustics than I do, but if you'll take a suggestion from a lowly engineer/producer in your drum room, liven up the floor. If there's carpet down. pull it up. It worked for me.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

I think the same principal applies on the ceiling. If you want them to not hang as much, put more space between your hooks and stretch the straps a bit to reach the hook. It will take up the slack in the hook and bring the trap closer to the ceiling.

This is 1" closer you're fussing about right

And all of these dudes and their companies know more about acoustics than I do, but if you'll take a suggestion from a lowly engineer/producer in your drum room, liven up the floor. If there's carpet down. pull it up. It worked for me.

2" is what I'm talking about.

I did try every which way to get the panel closer to ceiling. I put a pair a of hooks as wide as the strap would allow, stretched the straps... I even tried twisting the straps to shorten them up. All pointless. The straps are too wide and sewn in too low on the back of the panels, and the fabric sags down 4" no matter what. They should be much narrower in width and much closer to the corners. Why design a trap that CAN'T perform its best out of the box when hanging from the ceiling? A 2" gap is best for 703.

About the drums and carpet underneath - I do have carpet under the kit, but not covering the whole floor of the room. Upon what surface do you setup drums? I've thought about using plywood, but it seems like the kit would move around unless you put blocks in front of it (mostly the kick). Do the spikes in the kick legs immobilize it enough?

[s.d.finley]

IIRC in the new Sound on Sound mag, they have an article where they redo a studio and put down a small drum riser, maybe 8'X8'. Topped with plywood and they put mineral wool underneath. Of course there was a small carpet for the kit.

Looked pretty cool. I have carpet in my live room with cement underneath. I might give this a go!!

[theblotted]

about getting the bags closer to ceiling, are you talking about flat/parallel traps to ceiling, or corner/vertical panels up to ceiling?

if it's latter, a zip-tie helps it getting it closer to the ceiling for me, i've got it about half an inch off from the ceiling.

if it's the former, then it's impossible to get it right up the ceiling mostly due to the size of the hook. but then again, i'm under the impression that it's better to have a bit of spacing between ceiling and trap, no? i read somewhere that it's better to have the spacing about the same size as the thickness of the traps...

i feel like i'm missing something here.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by theblotted

about getting the bags closer to ceiling, are you talking about flat/parallel traps to ceiling, or corner/vertical panels up to ceiling?

if it's latter, a zip-tie helps it getting it closer to the ceiling for me, i've got it about half an inch off from the ceiling.

if it's the former, then it's impossible to get it right up the ceiling mostly due to the size of the hook. but then again, i'm under the impression that it's better to have a bit of spacing between ceiling and trap, no? i read somewhere that it's better to have the spacing about the same size as the thickness of the traps...

i feel like i'm missing something here.

The traps do their job best when the space between them and the ceiliing or wall is equal to the thickness of the trap. A 2" trap needs a 2" gap, 4" needs 4".

I'm talking about hanging them parallel to the ceiling. Are you using the same traps I am (readytraps)? If so, please do a huge favor for me and post a pic showing how the traps are hanging 1/2" from the ceiling. I find that hanging them in any way from their built in straps causes a 4" droop.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

So are you asserting that 703 is better than 705 as per OC's specs until you put them both in a corner?

No, 705 beats 703 at low frequencies, period. The disparity is due to failings of the reverb room test method at bass frequencies, as explained in my Density Report. Hopefully, y'all will allow me to editorialize a bit:

Acoustics and bass traps are not as complicated as some believe, but it's not trivial either. For someone to look at the standard data as presented by material manufacturers and conclude that's all there is to it is ignorant and foolish. I came by my knowledge the hard way - I tested a lot of things in different rooms. Since my main goal is to educate, I have published all of my findings that are not proprietary. Besides my Density Report and "Believe" article (LINK), you'll find many other articles describing my original research and findings listed on the Articles page of the RealTraps site:

RealTraps - Acoustics Articles

In particular, see the three "RealTraps Exclusive" articles near the bottom of the list.

I believe that consumers (you guys) benefit from this type of research, which is why I do it and publish the results. I also find this stuff fascinating, which is another reason I work so hard at doing original research. So you'll forgive me if I get irritated when folks who are little more than acoustics newbies pretend to have all the answers, or call me wrong without having done their own homework first. Just because someone sells bass traps does not make them an acoustician.

--Ethan

[magnuspater]

i now officially hate reading acoustics posts on gs. thanks a lot, acoustics pros. tutt

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by Jax

The traps do their job best when the space between them and the ceiliing or wall is equal to the thickness of the trap. A 2" trap needs a 2" gap, 4" needs 4".

I'm talking about hanging them parallel to the ceiling. Are you using the same traps I am (readytraps)? If so, please do a huge favor for me and post a pic showing how the traps are hanging 1/2" from the ceiling. I find that hanging them in any way from their built in straps causes a 4" droop.

um...

i started the thread, with "ready traps" written in the title... so yes, i am using ready traps.

also, i mentioned, if it's in the corner, i can get it 1/2". if it's parallel, impossible due to size of hooks and the sag from the bag anyway. for the ceiling panel, i do have both straps/hooks turned 2 1/2 times to lessen the amount of spacing. currently, it's hanging off 5" for a 4" thick panel. any more turns on the hook, and it'll start unwinding itself.