New home studio build - HVAC causing noise issues

[infiniteposse]

Hi all-

I've just finished a new home studio build and things have gone quite well on the whole.

Here's what was done, electrically speaking:

1) We installed a completely new panel and upgraded the service to 200 amps. There is, however, just a single service running to the house and a single panel for both the house and the studio.

2) We used a Star grounding scheme, so every new outlet that was added has a direct link to the ground (as I understand Star-grounding, that's the point). My electricians worked from documentation provided to them about Star-grounding (sourced from this forum and Rod G.'s book), so presumably they get the idea and did it correctly.

3) I specified that all of the studio-based outlets should be off of any circuit (?) with mechanical items connected to them, including HVAC, Fridge, Water Heater, Dish Washer, etc... I'm presuming this was done correctly, but was going to have them double check.

4) All electrical work done was based on recommendations from an acoustic consulting firm we contracted who specializes in building studios.

5) There are no dimmers in the studio and no lights with transformers. All lighting was spec'd for studio usage.

I've just started mixing and tracking in the room in the last few days and it turns out that the new HVAC system is causing the lights downstairs to dim slightly and I'm also hearing clicks and pops on occasion through my tube amps, DAW monitor output and I also recorded quite a few yesterday, my least favorite thing in the world.

My question is, how can I isolate and remedy the problem?

I've learned in the last day that despite the whole premise of the studio construction project being that the studio needs clean power with no major appliances connected, I've now learned that 240v appliances are on both "legs"
of the power and are therefore connected to my outlets, lights, outlets connected to gear, etc... The house was always just going to have a single, upgraded service panel which no one said was of concern, but evidently this means that by default the 240 appliances have to be on the same circuits as my gear.

I've been reading through threads about various power conditioners such as the Furman AR-15 SERIES II or AR-1215, the much more expensive Equi-tech boxes and also the least expensive APC conditioners. All seem to help to maintain consistant line voltage, which I'm guessing is what is fluctuating when the HVAC system cycles on, yes? Would these solutions help the issue of pops through amps and my DAW?

Is there perhaps a way to specifically clean up the HVAC curcuit so that it doesn't affect the house as a whole?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Lee

[tINY]

The 2 phase 240v legs aren't really the issue. The issue is the voltage drop to the whole pannel. The best way to isolate the mechanicals is using a separate service with it's own wires to the power pole.

There are a couple of ways to mitigate the problem.

You can get soft-start circuit to install on all motors: AC, Refer, fans, etc. Or, you can put a remote control (SCR) to turn off those circuits when you are doing critical takes.

Or, you can get an AC-DC-AC power conditioner like a UPS.




-tINY

[infiniteposse]

Thanks for the info Tiny. Do you have any specific recommendations for UPS products? That would be the least expensive route to go, yes? My budget is pretty much tapped at this point and this wasn't something I was expecting to run up against, perhaps foolishly.

When I think of UPS products I think of servers and battery back-up as opposed to conditioning and power regulation. Is this something that's typically a dual function product or are the Furman products just not the right direction to be looking?

Thanks again for the feedback.

Lee

[chetatkinsdiet]

The furman's are not the one's you'd need here. What he's talking about are the type that you're thinking about. The UPS's at the computer stores are the babies in the family. You'd probably need a larger one that's hardwired in the system somewhere to isolate (bad choice of words there, I know) the studio from the main house and/or the HVAC. As always, you can spend as much as you want here. I'd speak to someone at APC or other company that does heavy duty ones. You might have to just click off the AC while tracking for now and save some money.

m

[numrologst]

sounds to me like there is something f'd in the new power situation. Maybe you need a new electrician. I haven't seen the hvac making lights dim in a long time. I am not electrical expert though.

My current studio wiring is nothing special. 200 amps and no star grounding. The system is pretty old and I get a fairly conistent voltage...115-123 or so.

I will admit that I had serious noise and ground loop problems until I was turned on to balanced power. It has made a world of difference for me.

My suggestion would be to scrap your panel that you have now and get an equitech wall system. It replaces your panel. Full balanced power to all your outlets. It will eradicate all your noise problems. If you must have the 200 amps then you are looking at 10k, and if you can deal with 120 amps, then you are looking at 7k. I am going to put that in my new studio.

If you don't have the cash for that right now, then you can do what i do as of right now. I have an equitech 2q and and 2 furman it-20 ii's. Gives me 60 amps of balanced power... That is what all my gear runs off of, and it is plenty for: Console, 2 tape machines, da converters, computer, 42" lcd, 40 outboard rack peices, guitar amps, elec piano, organ, synths, etc. 60 amps is by far enough for me, and I run everything else off the regular power.

There is a huge difference in noise floor, and I mean big time noticable difference. And in my opinion it makes the digital gear sound better... And it could possibly make the analog gear sound a bit better too.

[numrologst]

Also, I had the 60 amps coming into the studio isolated from the rest of the building... Meaning there is 60 amps for balanced into control room and live room. There is 20 amps of unbalanced into control room, and another 20 amps of unbalanced into the live room. Then the other 120 is unbalanced and that is what the hvac, fridge, lounge, etc is run off of.

[infiniteposse]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys.

numrologst - This is a brand new install here - new panel, upgraded service, new outlets, new HVAC (heatpump/furnace). Installing a new Equi-tek panel is not an option financially nor what I see to be a reasonable expectation after having spent $$$ to upgrade everything. We installed a top not star ground system and the entire point of the system was to isolate mechanical noise and the like.

If there are any modifications to the system that you could think that the electricians could make, that would be ideal. The project is not complete yet and with these kinds of issues, it's getting farther and farther from being complete. I expect them to solve any janky issues we're having as part of the work they've been paid to do before I spend a cent on extras.

Any other thoughts appreciated.

Lee

[numrologst]

Yeah I would just make sure the hvac is not making your voltage drop anymore... To me, that is scary.

Regardless of how new your power is, you should still look in to balanced power. I am telling you there is a major major difference in noise floor from before to after. It made my digital gear sound much better, and it helped my analog gear. Not to mention there is some serious protection for your gear. Your gear won't get damaged by voltage spikes or drops and that is priceless.

Maybe start off with a furman it-20ii... It's like $1600 and will run 20 amps... That's plenty for most consoles and a tape machine... Or all your outboard

[tINY]

Balanced power is hookum.

It does force you to put in an isolation transformer - which is what cleans up the buzz....

I-posse - you over in an old victorian on the east side?



-tINY

[infiniteposse]

Hi Tiny-

I's a Craftsman actually, 1926 It's nice to know I have a house actually made of wood and not particle board.

Are you in Portland?

[rufus13]

[QUOTE=tINY;1307691][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=indigo]

Balanced power is hookum.

It does force you to put in an isolation transformer - which is what cleans up the buzz....

I-posse - you over in an old victorian on the east side?

-tINY

Any serious upgrade to your power panel and system ground is likely to get rid of something bad, like corrosion, that can be attributed to a fancy new box. Once the connections are cleaned up, lots of weird intermittent gremlins go to someone else's house. Bill Whitlock allows that balanced power may be a minor improvement even on otherwise excellent systems.

Our little Portland house is from 1906, with knob&tube, as well as romex. Real horrorshow.

Portland power is excellent, and cheap, compared to the US at large. I hear that they are raising our rates about 10% this summer because BPA is going back on their promise of "Power at cost" for the Pacific NW (since we host the hydro projects).

Cheers.

[tINY]

I'm out Hillsboro way....

I think you do better to use metal conduit and twist the hot and netral inside of it than bother with "balanced power"....

But what do I know?




-tINY

[tINY]

Originally Posted by rufus13

Portland power is excellent, and cheap, compared to the US at large. I hear that they are raising our rates about 10% this summer because BPA is going back on their promise of "Power at cost" for the Pacific NW (since we host the hydro projects).

Cheers.

I read that story - there's public agencies and judges involved. It's a beurocratic clusterfrack involving rebates and payments to private utilities and so on.



-tINY

[Audio_Vault]

wire a killswitch to the control room