Can I build a studio under an appartment?

[StringMike]

I'm looking for a good space for a small studio/depot/rehearsal area. I just wondered if it is possible to place a studio next to, over or (as in this case) under appartments/residential spaces? I have been planning from the start to acoustically treat the rooms and more or less build a floating room.
I just don't want to be a pain in the a... to my neighbours , or be limited to work in restricted periods of the day.
Does anyone have experience with this?

[Amstel]

I'm also interested in this! Is it possible to do this, so one can even record drums at 4 o' clock in the morning, without disturbing the neighbours

[t-slice]

I live in an apartment where my neighbor has a sub right next to my wall. It is never too loud, but always just loud enough to irritate me. Sometimes my computer is louder than his sub, but its the constant thumping bass that really gets to me.

To me, it would not be cost effective to isolate my apartment. I would put my money toward studio time, build a vocal booth, and mix in headphones. I spent around $300 building a vocal booth that was not really that isolated, and was hotter than hell on the inside. It sounded alright after cutting all the bass out, but I image to isolate my apartment, it would cost around $8,000 if not a whole lot more. I have a friend who builds houses for a living, he isolated his garage, and it cost him around $12,000, he did a beautiful job though.

[Amstel]

I don't have much experience with these things, since I'm not recording acoustic drums and loud amps.. What I'd like to know though; is it possible to isolate a room completely? I have the oppertunity to get a large space in the middle of the city. The height of the room is about 4 metres. However, above this room there are several appartements. Is it possible to isolate it in order to stay out of trouble with the neighbours and police...?

[norman_nomad]

I will strongly urge you NOT to build near, above or under any residential apartment.

Most people underestimate how effortlessly bass travels through even multiple layers of sheet rock.

I have a mix room in my apartment and even monitoring at 85db is too much for neighbors after 10pm... forget about trying to track an electric guitar or God forbid a drum kit!

You can create a "room within a room" but usually the costs are so great that it just makes more sense to build your space somewhere else.

I hate to say it, but there is no way in almost any circumstance that you're going to treat a shared wall apartment in such a way that you can track things like drums late a night and no-one will hear.

If your neighbors are tolerant, than that's good thing, but don't expect to stop ALL of the sound.

Sorry to be a downer, but this is the reality of the situation.

Good luck!

[sounddevisor]

I have to disagree a bit with norman_nomad - it is indeed possible to build an acoustically isolated space in an apartment, given enough space. Tracking drums at 4am might be pushing it, but even that might not be out of the question. I have friends who live in a fairly posh apartment in Brooklyn, with neighbors above, below, and on two sides, who have a rehearsal room in their apartment where they record and rehearse moderately loud rock, with drums, and no complaints from the neighbors. In fact, I have been in their apartment during a rehearsal and barely heard anything.

However, cost will be an issue for sure - in order to do this properly, you will need expert help from someone who knows what they are doing in terms of construction techniques and engineering - you will be very lucky if you try to do it yourself using info you get off the internet and it actually works, unless you have experience in building isolated structures. Count on spending real money to hire someone, at least as a consultant, as trying to save money by doing it yourself could end up being way more expensive in wasted time, effort, and materials when you have to rip the whole thing out 'cause it doesn't work. Also, count on spending more than you expect on building materials, as one of the basic principles of isolated construction is that it takes a lot of mass to stop sound transmission, particularly low frequencies. My studio, room-within-a-room construction in the basement of my building, has three layers of 5/8" sheetrock on all walls and ceilings, plus another layer on the existing ceiling - total weight of sheetrock to construct two rooms, about 15,000 pounds.

So expect to spend some money - whether it's worth it only you can say. But the short answer is yes, it can be done, depending on how much isolation you need and how much money you are willing to spend.

Good luck!

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by sounddevisor

I have to disagree a bit with norman_nomad - it is indeed possible to build an acoustically isolated space in an apartment, given enough space. Tracking drums at 4am might be pushing it, but even that might not be out of the question. I have friends who live in a fairly posh apartment in Brooklyn, with neighbors above, below, and on two sides, who have a rehearsal room in their apartment where they record and rehearse moderately loud rock, with drums, and no complaints from the neighbors. In fact, I have been in their apartment during a rehearsal and barely heard anything.

However, cost will be an issue for sure - in order to do this properly, you will need expert help from someone who knows what they are doing in terms of construction techniques and engineering - you will be very lucky if you try to do it yourself using info you get off the internet and it actually works, unless you have experience in building isolated structures. Count on spending real money to hire someone, at least as a consultant, as trying to save money by doing it yourself could end up being way more expensive in wasted time, effort, and materials when you have to rip the whole thing out 'cause it doesn't work. Also, count on spending more than you expect on building materials, as one of the basic principles of isolated construction is that it takes a lot of mass to stop sound transmission, particularly low frequencies. My studio, room-within-a-room construction in the basement of my building, has three layers of 5/8" sheetrock on all walls and ceilings, plus another layer on the existing ceiling - total weight of sheetrock to construct two rooms, about 15,000 pounds.

So expect to spend some money - whether it's worth it only you can say. But the short answer is yes, it can be done, depending on how much isolation you need and how much money you are willing to spend.

Good luck!

Thanks for the comments on your experience, but let me offer a couple insights as well...

It is possible that your friends in this "posh" apartment benefit from well insulated walls usually found in newer and better constructed (read: higher price) apartment complexes. Even then, it won't kill ALL or even most of the low frequency sounds.

The shared wall is the hardest part to get past. Shared walls pass sound much more easily than if there was an air gap. Hence the reason you can blast your TV in your house and your neighbor doesn't hear it, but try the same thing in an apt/hotel/hostel and you'll always hear the low frequency murmer.

Let's just put it this way.

Have you even recorded drums at a nice studio?

When the monitors in the control room are off do you still hear drums through the dual insulated double isolated studio walls?

Yes. You do. Not too loud. But loud enough to hear easily. And likely too loud for any "intollerant" neighbor.

I'm not saying it's impossilble. I'd just hate to see a guy sink 15k into an apartment buildout just to find out he's going to have to relocate.

My 2 cents.

[cosmos]

All true here, i would not reccomend to do that. just think what IF the neighbor complaines about noise ... thats the last thing you want to hear when tracking hard guitars, not to mentiond drums ...
then ... roll back 15k of treatment, find a new place, start building all over again. save yourself the trouble and find a place which you can work when YOU want to and in your OWN time . hope it helps alittle ... & Good Luck !

[jhamburg]

String Mike,

I'll add to the excellent points by Sounddevisor and norman nomad (does anyone else find it amusing to refer to people by their handles ?)

• To gain sufficient isolation you will be losing considerable amounts of space. If you have 3 meter ceilings in the rough space, your finished ceilings could easily be 40-50 cm lower. You can also subtract another 10 cm from the existing walls. This may be a problem, especially if you're looking at an older storefront. You did say you wanted a small space but if you put in the effort/money you will want it to be usable.

• If you build it properly it will get very hot/stuffy in the control room, you're going to need some good HVAC. This is all too often overlooked.

• In US cities you need to at least consider the relevant zoning as if someone has a grudge they might be able to cause trouble. This may or may not be a problem in your town.

• Not only is it expensive but it will take much longer to build than you would like. It could easily be 6 months before you can press record; and that's with a contractor !

In the end I would strongly advise against it unless you owned the space or if you could get a long term lease with the ability to sign it over to another studio owner. You certainly don't want to get a two year lease, spend 12k euros, 6 months and then have the rent double just when you're getting into a groove.

Otherwise it's simple cheaper and easier to find a space where you can throw up some decent partitions yourself for 1-2k and get rolling in a month or so.

cheers,

joel

[eligit]

if you are going to invest 10k on building a studio room.....better to find the right location FIRST (warehouse district, etc).

what if you blow 10k+ and THEN the neighbors can still hear you pretty clearly through the shared wall/ceiling/floor and are always calling the cops....that would totally suck.

[Sigma]

i live in a row home and built a studio with no problems..

but i wouldn't rent in todays studio economy..if i had to I would buy..I know too many studio owners who leased space and when they closed ..well some gear appreciates in value but other? how many sony 48 track dig are 2500 dollar boat anchors now?

we owned our facility in Phila and when it was time to sell a few years ago the real estate market had just skyrocketed in our area [plus we had the bld since the late 60's..

i had the opportunity to rent instead of building in my home..i opted for HOME..i mix cut vox and do small overdubs here and when i need to i pay 20hr to rent a 2000 square foot space with 18 foot ceilings with and assistant included, protools and a good assortment of pre's and mics

i used layering of diff density material whicjh really cut down on sound transmission..but we all know that sound finds a way out like water in a leaky fish tank..ya gotta plug all the holes as best you can and at times ya just have to do it and then tweak it tweak it tweak it

[sounddevisor]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Have you even recorded drums at a nice studio?

Norman, since you don't know me or anything about me other than what I've posted on this forum, I'm going to assume that when you typed "eveN," what you really meant was "eveR." And the answer is, "yes."

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

When the monitors in the control room are off do you still hear drums through the dual insulated double isolated studio walls?

Yes. You do. Not too loud. But loud enough to hear easily. And likely too loud for any "intollerant" neighbor.

Well, just to be extra nit-picky and irritable since I'm still working on the first cup of coffee, I think that might depend on some outside factors - specifically, I'm thinking about the ambient noise floor in whatever environment you're living in. If the apartment in question is in some nice green-lawn suburb where the loudest thing around is your insomniac neighbor watching "Cops" at 3am, then yeah, you'll probably have a tough time getting your isolation down to an acceptable level to do drums in the middle of the night. On the other hand, if you live in a city where the noise floor at 3am is fairly high, you might not have a problem at all.

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

I'm not saying it's impossilble. I'd just hate to see a guy sink 15k into an apartment buildout just to find out he's going to have to relocate.

So as far as the original question goes, we actually agree - it is POSSIBLE to do (or at least, not impossible, or even impossilble.) As far as the implicit question goes, ("should I do it?" or "is it a good idea?") I still argue that it depends on factors we can't assess here - quality of the existing construction, disposition of the neighbors, ambient noise floor, and how many dB of isolation will be needed. An expert consultant can do a site survey and answer some of these questions, and give StringMike a more realistic picture of the cost involved.

And yes, jhamburg, I do find it amusing (as well as practical) to refer to people by their handles. But if you prefer, I'd be happy to call you something else...

[jDresnin]

Originally Posted by StringMike

I'm looking for a good space for a small studio/depot/rehearsal area. I just wondered if it is possible to place a studio next to, over or (as in this case) under appartments/residential spaces? I have been planning from the start to acoustically treat the rooms and more or less build a floating room.
I just don't want to be a pain in the a... to my neighbours , or be limited to work in restricted periods of the day.
Does anyone have experience with this?

Have you already ruled out renting out a practice space? There's quite a few in my area and they shouldn't be too hard to find in any major city. In the ones i've been to you can barely hear bands down the halls and it's almost silent in each individual room. Some of them are even already treated from previous renters so they sound great for tracking. Rent is usually just a couple hundred a month and you can use the space as often as you'd like and keep all your stuff stored there, any decent place will have tight security and i have never heard of anyone's gear getting stolen at any of those places... Just another option to consider.

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by sounddevisor

Norman, since you don't know me or anything about me other than what I've posted on this forum, I'm going to assume that when you typed "eveN," what you really meant was "eveR." And the answer is, "yes."

Yes, sorry... I meant "even" and it was more of a rhetorical question for the original poster, not necessarily aimed at you directly.

I guess I was just trying to illustrate the concept that even at the best studios, complete sound isolation is not achieved between rooms with shared walls.

You right though, big city neighbors in general may be more tolerant of noise than those in the suburbs...

[StringMike]

I really appreciate your replies. One of the reasons that I consider a place in residential areas, is, that it's one of the few types of commercial areas, that are for sale right now. It is always possible to rent smaller rooms, but it is hard to find something below 200 sqmeters for sale. I really agree that it is a very wise investment to buy instead of renting - and I would spend money on treatment and installitions with much more peace of mind, than if I did not own the place.
I would always consult a proffesional before purchasing. But it is nice to know whether it is realistic to look for areas like that. I guess, that I will probably try to be patient and hope for something more hazzle-free to come up.