Monitors and Room treatment

[Surreal]

hello all and thank you for looking.

i posted a while back about picking a room. the thread is here.

i picked the room without a window. it is, acoustically speaking, bad. i like my room and i use headphones so that didnt matter much before but now i would like to buy some monitors.

but money just got tighter with the loss of hours on job. so i have maybe 1500 dollars over the course of a 6 months to spend. as we all know, i could get more out, becaause i am a gearslut, but this is a pretty generous estimate.

i had my heart set on the Adam A7s until this money issue. i am torn now between getting the room to sound nice and getting nice monitors.

any suggestions? 3 things i really am looking for; Monitors. stands for monitors. Room treatment(traps and all that.

and recommended order of purchase woulf be appreciated. i know monitors first...but is seems silly to buy them with a bad room.

[Todd24]

Without room treatment, the monitors wont tell the truth. No matter how much you spend. tutt

Treat the room first, spend what you can on monitors.

[Surreal]

ok, i assumed that...but with the price restraints what is a reasonoble amount to stop at?

i know i could easily spend 1000+ on treating this room. but that would leave 500 dollars for monitors and stands...that is a big problem for me...i think.

[makesijoseph]

i used drapes(curtains) in the corners NO 90 degree angles STANDING WAVES are a bitch, i got this from 'martin raymond' use a mirror and anywhere you can see the monitor from you get reflections just put a peice of foam(HI DENSITY PREFERABLY but normal foam would work) this is a last resort.......you can also use an external EQ and electronically tune the room.

[bpape]

Call me biased... but I'd rather have decent monitors in a decent to good room over good monitors in an untreated room any day. Your mixes will translate much better.

Bryan

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Surreal

ok, i assumed that...but with the price restraints what is a reasonoble amount to stop at?

i know i could easily spend 1000+ on treating this room. but that would leave 500 dollars for monitors and stands...that is a big problem for me...i think.

Sure you could spend $1000, heck you could spend $2500 also. But you could start with a small amount of bass trapping then add more over time.

Not to make a sales pitch out of this but lets look at the numbers.

6 GIK 244 - $389.94
3 GIK 242 - $164.97
Total - $554.91 plus shipping (figure shipping to be $90 to $180 depending on where you live)

Your room would not be perfect, but I would think you would be 70 to 90% of the way there depending on your room size and set up.

I guess my point is room treatment is actually less then the monitors themselves and will make a much bigger difference in the translation of the mixes.

Glenn

[Cojo]

Hi Surreal.

Treat your room!

I know it's hard to accept but treating your room is a must. If you don't you can as well just buy the cheapest monitors in the store...

[jwl]

Definitely treat the room. You can do this for $1500, and buy some decent monitors. I'd wager you could drop a grand on the A7s for $1000 and still go a long way toward treating your room with $500. I've also seen good deals on the Mackie HR824 monitors lately, as they're gearing up to come out with the new version of those. I also think the Behringer Truth monitors give really good band for the buck, I've mixed on them before.

As written above, GIK has some good stuff at decent prices, but if you are at all mechanically-inclined you can get the most bang/buck with DIY treatments, particularly if there is an Ultratouch Cotton dealer in your area so you don't have to pay shipping on absorptive material.

I agree with everyone that I'd rather have decent monitors in a good room, than fantastic monitors in a crappy room.

[strat+ac30]

+1 on treatment.

Points in favor of treatment:
- The room is better for both tracking (better source material, nicer ambience) and mixing (more accurate sonic information from your DAW).
- Having a treated room (if it's done well) gives off a definite "artist" vibe - it just looks cool. Don't underestimate the value of vibe in getting good performances.
- If comparing $300 monitors vs. $1500 monitors, and $300 room treatment vs. $1500 room treatment, the room treatment will offer much higher value. In other words, if you got "x" improvement from the monitor upgrade, you might get "2x", "3x" or "5x" improvement from the room treatment.

Points in favor of $$$ monitors
- Gearslutz bragging rights.

I kid, I kid. $$$ monitors are awesome. But the cost-value is far lower, imho. When you think about it, room treatment can often fix 20dB+ peaks and valleys in your sound. No monitor worth it's salt will have more than 5dB or so.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

Definitely treat the room. You can do this for $1500, and buy some decent monitors. I'd wager you could drop a grand on the A7s for $1000 and still go a long way toward treating your room with $500. I've also seen good deals on the Mackie HR824 monitors lately, as they're gearing up to come out with the new version of those. I also think the Behringer Truth monitors give really good band for the buck, I've mixed on them before.

As written above, GIK has some good stuff at decent prices, but if you are at all mechanically-inclined you can get the most bang/buck with DIY treatments, particularly if there is an Ultratouch Cotton dealer in your area so you don't have to pay shipping on absorptive material.

I agree with everyone that I'd rather have decent monitors in a good room, than fantastic monitors in a crappy room.

Sure JWL you can build anything. In fact I would build the monitors instead. . The point of buying acoustic treatment is.

1)It looks pro
2)It performs pro, if buy from a company that has done there homework and has testing
3)You get one on one support from the company on room set up and placement. Yes you could build a pile of acoustics and get all kinds of great advice from guys like this http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/...-isolation.htm but is that what you want?

As all the guys know on here I help people all day long, but I would also point out that there is a huge difference between a commercial product and a DYI product.

Glenn

[warhead]

I find Glenn's advice and service INVALUABLE so hard to put a price on what you receive in the end: a room done right (and it even looks good to boot!).

My completely biased $.02

War

[ddageek]

Okay her is the simpe way to look at it as a gear slut $600 on gick panels are going to make a most $900 sound beter than a set of most $1500 in an un treated room.
Now when you feciede that the $900.0 moniters need to be upgraded think how much better all your projects sound and how much better the next set of moniters will sound in a a nice treated room!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Sure JWL you can build anything. In fact I would build the monitors instead.

LOL, of course I agree Glenn. Heck, people can build their own preamps, and mixers, and EQs, and any other gear. But at some point it's not cost effective (unless you're really poor). I've always been a DIY kind of guy, and in the 1970s I spent two years designing the console in the first link below, and another year building it. I also designed and built half the gear in the curved rack, and spent another two years on the synthesizer in the second link. So I'm definitely not opposed to DIY! But most professionals are too busy for that, or can't build things as nice as commercial products, or would rather spend their time mixing music than getting itchy glass fibers all up in their armpits.

JWL's advice in this forum is generally on the money, but there's a ton of lamers out there advising people on room acoustics. Like this gem that claims to show how to make a bass trap:

Build an awesome bass trap

In the end, not everyone can, or wants, to make their own treatment. And as you pointed out, few can make bass traps as effective or as attractive as what you and I sell. We both help people all day long, whether they plan to buy treatment or not. And that's fine. But lots of people care more about excellent than cheap, so maybe the DIY advisors can leave a few crumbs for you and me for all our effort here.

--Ethan

[Acoustic Cloud]

Hey Ethan!

I looked at some of the concrete form tubes, from a local dude who builds the cat towers/tunnels. I was thinking they would be too thick to let the bass waves manipulate them. Is that wrong? Those would be definitely easier to build than the panels, IMO.

Plus, everyone likes the look of tubes in a corner!

[Acoustic Cloud]

oops, I didnt read the paragraph before that link.

Nevermind! HAHA!

[jwl]

Ethan and Glenn, your points are well-taken. I do like your products and recommend them all the time.

However, I remain convinced that if you are on a budget crunch, DIY is the best way to go. Budget crunches are usually present in situations where people have more time than money.

Certainly, for $1500 you could get a decent pair of monitors and a handful of your traps. But I have to say, with a budget of $1000, if I spend it on your products as compared to spending it on absorptive material, I'm gonna get better results for the same money by buying a higher volume/mass of material and installing it myself. As you so often say, Ethan (and rightly so), acoustic treatment (ie, bass trapping/broadband absorption) is largely about mass and coverage area, and bottom line I get more of both with the DIY route. Plus I can customize the treatment to fit exactly the space I have, without limiting myself to prefab panels.

Even with prefab panels, there is still some DIY action involved as they have to be installed in the room. Not a big deal, but it's not like there is zero labor involved with your products.

That said, I see a TON of value in both your products; Glenn you do a great job of getting some very reasonably priced treatment options out there for people who don't like DIY.... Ethan your stuff is very innovative with your membrane absorber concept (and others). Both of you are MORE than generous with your expertise and knowledge. I'm glad your products are out there, and I honestly do dream of a day when the higher cost of buying your stuff is the best option for me.... I'd love a set of mondotraps and realtrap gobos that follow me wherever I work....

And yes, when I do build my room I'm planning on building my main monitors from scratch too....

[Glenn Kuras]

Even with prefab panels, there is still some DIY action involved as they have to be installed in the room. Not a big deal, but it's not like there is zero labor involved with your products.

Your right,

Unpack box, hang on wall, push record.

I applaud you can build things, but not everyone can or wants to. Believe it or not some people just want to record music and not hassle with research, making trips around town buying stuff, building, more trips back to home depot (you know the drill), rebuilding, trips to the emergency room for stitches, trying to figure out what works best, so on and so forth. This is gearslutz not carpenterslutz.

What is your time worth? Sure you could do this as a weekend job, but how many weekends do you want to spend on it? 2, 3, 4 or more? Some guys only get to record on the weekend, so either they are giving up what they REALLY what to do or giving up money that they could have charged. So for guys that charge, they just gave up all those days of PAYING CLIENTS to save a few hundred dollars. Or did that just cost them a few hundred dollars in billing?

BTW my deck to my house is getting old I could rebuild that myself too. But I plan on having a pro do it while I record some music. Hey come to think of it, do you want to build the deck for me?

If someone is DEAD broke then I would just get some fluffy fiberglass and stack it floor to ceiling in all corners, save my money and get the real deal down the road.

BTW you sound like the kind of guy that likes the research and the labor of the building something as much as the result that you get from it. Which I do respect and I am sure your room with come out incredible.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Just read my reply but want to make sure one point is clear.

As a company we have always been committed to education of acoustics and along with that comes the DYI crowd. We have always supported that and will still do so in the future. My point was more about value over all.

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jwl

Ethan and Glenn, your points are well-taken. I do like your products and recommend them all the time.

I can't disagree with anything you said. And a big to building your own loudspeakers!

Again, I applaud folks on a budget who build their own bass traps and other treatment, and as you know I've been helping DIY'ers with this stuff since before there was an Internet. But a lot of people prefer to avoid the mess of DIY, and are glad to pay a pro like me to advise them one on one. I object mainly to the implication that DIY is the only sensible way to treat a room.

Anyway, I have no beef with you JWL, and we've been friends long enough that I'm sure you know I really mean that!

--Ethan

[jwl]

No beef whatsoever Ethan, we're just discussing. :-)

Yeah, it all really depends on the budget, under a certain # (say, maybe $1000 depending on the size of the room) I *do* think it makes more sense to DIY.

But now I'm repeating myself.... :-)

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

No beef whatsoever Ethan, we're just discussing. :-)

Yeah, it all really depends on the budget, under a certain # (say, maybe $1000 depending on the size of the room) I *do* think it makes more sense to DIY.

But now I'm repeating myself.... :-)

yea JWL I hope you don't think I have any beef with you either. It is always a pleasure reading your posts.
$1000??? mmmmmmmmmm I ain't so sure about that. I don't think I would ever spend $1000 building anything. Not that it would not be nice, but some day I might want to sell the gear (acoustics or what ever) and $1000 of MOST DYI stuff is not worth anything. If I buy something then I can sell if for something. Maybe half but $500.00 is better then nothing at all.
Now if you’re a master carpenter like yourself then, well………………….

Glenn

[jwl]

No worries Glenn. I could be wrong on the $1k, I was just pulling a nice, even # out of my.... mind.

The cool thing is, people have MANY options for effective acoustic treatment these days.