Re: Tired of Clicky Acoustic Guitar Sound

[at4033]

Hi Folks,

I've grown tired of the clicky AND boomy sound I get when recording strumming on my Taylor 810. It's a wonderful guitar that excels at many things, but strumming with anything less than a very soft hand is not one of them.

My mic collection and pres should not be the impediment (I can list if it is helpful). I think I need to start at the source.

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

...Not like I'm asking for the moon...

I welcome any thoughts you may have.

[skythemusic]

Originally Posted by at4033

Hi Folks,

I've grown tired of the clicky AND boomy sound I get when recording strumming on my Taylor 810. It's a wonderful guitar that excels at many things, but strumming with anything less than a very soft hand is not one of them.

My mic collection and pres should not be the impediment (I can list if it is helpful). I think I need to start at the source.

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

...Not like I'm asking for the moon...

I welcome any thoughts you may have.

Honestly getting rid of your Taylor is the key. Gibson or Martin is a great call. I have never heard a Taylor that sounded anything except like a music store ****** employee tone.

[Amun Ra]

To me, click and boom suggests microphone placement issues more than anything. Experiment more with placement. Try putting the mic parallell with the guitar, move it in & out, up & down. Try some positions that seem counter intuitive at first. Proximity to reflective surfaces might be good or bad, depending on what you are after. As long as the guitar is decent sounding, playing technique and mic placement will trump everything else, including guitar brand/model, microphone choice, etc.

[bluejbill]

Taylors tend to be a bit clicky, but also try a different pick, either heavier gauge or different material. I find regular celluloid picks to be softer than tortx for isntance.

Also, some mikes accentuate the clickiness.

Failing that, a good Martin D18 or Gibson jumbo sounds like what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by at4033

Hi Folks,

I've grown tired of the clicky AND boomy sound I get when recording strumming on my Taylor 810. It's a wonderful guitar that excels at many things, but strumming with anything less than a very soft hand is not one of them.

My mic collection and pres should not be the impediment (I can list if it is helpful). I think I need to start at the source.

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

...Not like I'm asking for the moon...

I welcome any thoughts you may have.

[vintagelove]

j45

[swafford]

Originally Posted by at4033

I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

Never payed a Taylor I liked.

The problem with Gibson's are they are hit and miss. If you have a good sounding one, it will open up, but it won't take any longer then any other guitar. Martins can be boomy in dreads and jumbos - I find the contemporary ones hit and miss also, though a 000 or 00 can really deliver a solid low end and smooth mids and highs.

I have acoustics of all types and sizes. When I want a picked flattop sound, I always reach for my Bourgeois Slope D. Nothing beats it. Mid forward with out being harsh, tight bottom end, really smooth top.

[KRStudio]

What mics are you using? Are you trying fig8 or omni? BTW Taylors were never meant to be used with a mic. They are braced to NOT resonate. This is what makes them useful on stage but not acoustically. I wish Taylor would put this in print.

[salomonander]

yes, apart that we dont know what mic you are using dump the taylor. they are just horrible guitars. i never heared one i liked. try gibson and martin. im sure there is other brands as well, but im not an expert. i only know how badly taylor guitars sucks :-) whenever i have one in the studio i pull out my ribbons. the only way i know to make them sound somewhat like a guitar...
(ps...i have had over ten taylor players here. some with crazy expensive custom models. i think they are all just horrible. in most cases we ended up contacting the rental place.)

[Drumsound]

First of all, bravo for first thinking about the instrument first. As mentioned Taylors are very attack heavy. When I saw your thread title I immediately thought J45 or J50. You'll need to search a little to find a good one. If you've got the money and can find a nice 60s J45/50 you'll be golden.

[Ephi82]

Originally Posted by at4033

Hi Folks,

I've grown tired of the clicky AND boomy sound I get when recording strumming on my Taylor 810. It's a wonderful guitar that excels at many things, but strumming with anything less than a very soft hand is not one of them.

My mic collection and pres should not be the impediment (I can list if it is helpful). I think I need to start at the source.

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

...Not like I'm asking for the moon...

I welcome any thoughts you may have.

First, I have to say that a Taylor is not my favorite sounding guitar, might just be me. IMO way too much top end, which may account for the "click" that you describe.

As far as the boominess, that is recording technique, experience and knowledge. If you aren't rolling off some db's where the "boom" is, coming in from an acoustic git, its never going to sound good. Mic positioning is actually MUCH more important in this regard and the best situation is a guitar tracked without EQ, but in many cases, EQ will be needed.

Last, it depends on what kind of sound you want. I love my Martin HD-28. Incredible low end with a lovely mid and high detail. I love putting mics in front of it, getting the best sounds I can. However, my 20 year old Guild D-25 has a "tone" that is unique and musical, and I love it as much as the Martin.

[lakeshorephatty]

I don't like taylors either.

We have a lower end martin of some sort. it cost about 1k 6 or so years ago. It has a lot of meat in the sound. Not really clicky at all. It has some kind of natural wood top. I think if the body of an acoustic has a thick durable clear coat its not going to resonate very well but that's just one of many factors.

I wouldn't mind hearing about your mics and placement either. I resonate with this subject because I too hate that kind of tone.

Flatwounds can also be VERY helpful.

Russell

[Ephi82]

Originally Posted by skythemusic

Honestly getting rid of your Taylor is the key. Gibson or Martin is a great call. I have never heard a Taylor that sounded anything except like a music store modern ****** employee tone.

+1 Agree

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by at4033

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

I have a Gibson J-185 and it's a great recording guitar. A bit smaller than a J-200 but still a Jumbo size. Great low end but not exaggerated.

BTW, I played a gig last weekend with a singer/songwriter that has an older Gibson Everly Brothers model, you know the one with the double pickguard. Oh man, is that guitar great! THE most amazing bass I ever heard in an acoustic guitar but tight and defined, a strummer's dream.

You can't really go wrong with a good new Gibson or Martin I'd say, the famous vintage models though simply have become too expensive unless you get very lucky. As for breaking it in - JUST DO IT. Play the hell out of that guitar and you will be a better player for it as well.

Leave the rest to the new agers and investment bankers.

[Ephi82]

Originally Posted by salomonander

yes, apart that we dont know what mic you are using dump the taylor. they are just horrible guitars. i never heared one i liked. try gibson and martin. im sure there is other brands as well, but im not an expert. i only know how badly taylor guitars sucks :-) whenever i have one in the studio i pull out my ribbons. the only way i know to make them sound somewhat like a guitar...
(ps...i have had over ten taylor players here. some with crazy expensive custom models. i think they are all just horrible. in most cases we ended up contacting the rental place.)

yup, unreal

[AcoosticZoo]

When was the last time your changed strings? If they are 6 months old, that's a reason it's not sound optimal.

I think most guitars can achieve musical results in recordings. I've recorded many from cheap pawn shop guitars to tier 1 guitars. The strength of the performance counts the most, also the use of Picks sets the sound in a big way. Certain Picks are more commonly used. Like the Jim Dunlop Nylon Standard .73 pick (grey) is a stunning pick.

Remember that certain productions require pretty creative eq'ing to get the raw sound sitting right. It's better to capture more "low end" boom then less, as it's easier to cut it out then put it back in if it's lacking in the first place.

Man I wish I owned a taylor 810. Ur lucky, I'd play it all the time. Terrific work of art imho.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo

I think most guitars can achieve musical results in recordings. I've recorded many from cheap pawn shop guitars to tier 1 guitars. The strength of the performance counts the most, also the use of Picks sets the sound in a big way.

I think that with acoustic guitars, it's definitely not only the performance but the instrument also. In a big way actually. 'Modern' guitars à la Taylor are often a nightmare to record, of course you can and should get acceptable results with mic positioning, EQ and whatever.

The problem with these 'modern' designs is that volume seems to be priority. A lot of these guitars have very strong fundamental tones and thus might sound boomy and harsh. Great acoustic guitars have 'bloom' to the notes and harmonic complexity. In that way they will 'excite' the room and the mics much more.

[mappee]

I'm partial to a Gibson j100 with warm mohogany back and sides.
Adept at fingerstyle and strumming. That said mic technique is key and eq per song.
I'd check out some Gibsons

[at4033]

Lots of great comments. Thanks, folks.

I really do think the problem is the guitar.

When recording other acoustics, I've been very happy using various combinations of: R84, MC930, E49, Baby Bottle, Kiwi, MA-200 > Pacifica, RPQ, Trident S40, LA610.

The Taylor just vexes me. The best results (for music with vocals) have been had when I use Silk & Steel strings (though the tone is gone in a few days).

Some of my favorite recordings have used J45s or J200s, but as has been noted here I find all modern Gibson guitars I've played (and I've played a few) to be hit or miss. @Doorknocker, I was one click away from ordering a Gibson J-185. I found a well recorded video on YouTube that just blew me away.

In fairness to the guitar, it is nice for chimy capo parts. And it works when I don't need to sit vocals. It just does not cut it for a warm strummed tone. Btw, @AcoosticZoo: I use that very pick for strumming!

Again, all helpful comments, folks. Thanks for taking the time to post comments.

PS: @Russell, you know, I had not considered flatwounds. I'll give that a try. I don't think I will ever sell the guitar. I bought it in the days after my grandmother's death, so it has sentimental value. She just needs a more well-behaved brother (or sister...)

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by at4033

@Doorknocker, I was one click away from ordering a Gibson J-185. I found a well recorded video on YouTube that just blew me away.

I got mine from Grinning Elk Music, they always have nice stuff there.

http://www.grinningelk.com/products/acoustics

I guess ordering from a 'normal' store that has every model is a bit more challenging as not every example of a model is great.

Maybe I just got lucky...but a friend of mine has a newer (say 10 years old or so) Gibson Hummingbird that is also spectacular.

What I love about my J-185 is that it's a very good sounding guitar that constantly gets better. Again, breaking it in can be very rewarding if you have a 'promising' instrument that makes you want to play. I literally couldn't put that J-185 down for the first 3 months or so and I really haven't played that much acoustic guitar before.

[Mr. Green]

Use a heavy pick and play it hard.

Seriously.

[andonwego]

Martin 000-28 is the model you need

Correct size for recording and rosewood back and sides

You require 80/20 bronze strings, as bright a set of strings as you can get, balances the rosewood darkness and depth

If you can get gold Optima strings, use those

You require John Pearse brass bridge pins. Re-****ing-markable difference to regular bridge pins.

High quality SOLID serious tuning machines help, they add mass to the headstock, improves resonance, reduces need for reverb in the mix

Find the thickest gauge strings you can accurately play without fretting problems on uptempo stuff doing a first fret F barre chord -- then go down a gauge so it's comfortable.



Yeah basically to echo everyone else, its not you, it's that Taylor

Taylor guitars are factory specified to sound bad.

It's part of the design. The gremlins in the factory do it on purpose. Sell the Taylor.

[lakeshorephatty]

Originally Posted by at4033

PS: @Russell, you know, I had not considered flatwounds. I'll give that a try. I don't think I will ever sell the guitar. I bought it in the days after my grandmother's death, so it has sentimental value. She just needs a more well-behaved brother (or sister...)

For me personally, flatwounds give me the portion of the sound i want to pick up anyway, and they remove that awful finger squeak thing as well, which is awesome.

Russell

[Wlouch]

Is it correctly intonated? and try moving the mics up and back a little. This can help with both the click and boom.

I am sure as you are considering getting a new guitar this has already been played around with to no avail?

[at4033]

Originally Posted by Wlouch

Is it correctly intonated? and try moving the mics up and back a little. This can help with both the click and boom.

I am sure as you are considering getting a new guitar this has already been played around with to no avail?

Hi Wlouch,

The intonation is solid. I've tried many positions (some less clicky than others) but the guitar never loses that aggressive, toppy upper-mid-range zing. 'Spect it's just the nature of the beast. Of all mics, an inexpensive NADY TRM-6 is probably most flattering (though I still have to carve the EQ). It's no longer in production (and a tad noisy) but a very cool mic.

[Faderjockey]

I like recording Collings... Easiest Acu to record.

[at4033]

I would love to check out a Collings. The closest store is probably 8 hours or so away.

[Joseph Egan]

I've got the Gibson Montana and a Hummingbird, and friends that bring their Martins over. I also have a Taylor 710.

I think my Taylor sounds wonderful and has it's uses so I don't buy this Taylor hating.

The brochure that came with the Taylor states that the guitar was voiced for Elixir strings. I've tried other brands and styles of strings and it's been my observation that my 710 does sound best with Elixir nanowebs.

[at4033]

Originally Posted by Joseph Egan

I've got the Gibson Montana and a Hummingbird, and friends that bring their Martins over. I also have a Taylor 710.

I think my Taylor sounds wonderful and has it's uses so I don't buy this Taylor hating.

The brochure that came with the Taylor states that the guitar was voiced for Elixir strings. I've tried other brands and styles of strings and it's been my observation that my 710 does sound best with Elixir nanowebs.

Joseph, that is an interesting point. I bought my 810 in 1993, which (I believe) is before Elixrs were around, but thanks for the tip! Definitely going to give this a try, too.

[Philman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Green

Use a heavy pick and play it hard.

Seriously.

You are exactly right. But, this is Gearslutz; which means if your idea doesn't costs thousands of dollars to implement then it won't be taken seriously. Seriously.



(what up austin?!)

[at4033]

Originally Posted by Philman

You are exactly right. But, this is Gearslutz; which means if your idea doesn't costs thousands of dollars to implement then it won't be taken seriously. Seriously.


(what up austin?!)

I'm not sure if this is the case with all Taylors, but when I lay into the strings the sound gets a bit compressed and mushy. Is that the gist of your suggestion?