Re: Tired of Clicky Acoustic Guitar Sound

[KarmaPolice]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Stick some Thomastik Plectrum strings on that Taylor if you're keeping it. It will take the edge off a bit and make her friendlier.....do it, you'll like it!

Lol, didn´t read the whole thread, you allready came up with that Did you find strings with a similar sound at a lower price. The Thomastik are 12€ a set?

I don´t necessarily need the lower tension, although it might be, why they sound so special. I tried tuning down with normal strings and it also helped.

So anything cheaper out there for softening harsh guitars?

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by KarmaPolice

So anything cheaper out there for softening harsh guitars?

Your touch.

I've been playing guitar for 30 + years, starting out with acoustic fingerpicking and I studied classical guitar for several years. But since I play electric guitar mostly it was only in the last few years that I'm halfway satisfied with the acoustic tone/touch I get especially when recording.

I'm constantly surprised how a lot of really good electric palyers aren't able to produce a nice sound on an acoustic guitar. But then again it's only normal because you only get good at something when you do it - a LOT and over a LONG time.

Most of the really good acoustic players I know (and I'm talking RHYTHM players here not 'slap and tap' solo acrobats) have a rather light touch yet the PROJECT. It's a matter of bringing out the sound but not using too much force because that will deaden the sound and give you less vibration from the guitar. Even left hand technique is totally different on an acoustic guitar and a lot of players (again, especially electric players) aren't aware of thsi at all.

But having said all this, the guitar itself still is important. For years I had a very nice Guild but it had a sound that never translated no matter what: too soft, too unfocused. Buying an old small-bodies Gibson LG-2 was a real eye opener for me and when I got the J-185 a bit more recently I really began to improve.

My method was simple to play and learn every song I dig. 'Simple' strumming, no jazzing it up and fancy patterns: Rhythm, tone and projection. for me it worked wonders.

So I don't think that you have to get a super-expensive model. Just make sure care that the guitar is not too boomy because that is a nightmare especially for recording but then again when palying live you probably need some kind of amplification so the boominess is even worse there.

[andivax]

Taylor big baby here. Author of topic should pOst audio clips.
I use my guitar with gefell m990 tube mic (something like u87 on steroids with hyped 10 kHZ). And i must say

1) mIc placement. Very imPortant. Search youtube for 'recOrding guitar'. And try to record in different positions and different distances.
2) Pick material. I was very amazed how different various picks sounds.
3) strings. Stock elixir strings is the best for me. I was try different martin models and was dissApointed.
4) you should play on your guitar. Suriusly. My new axe changed its sounds in about month.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I'm constantly surprised how a lot of really good electric palyers aren't able to produce a nice sound on an acoustic guitar. But then again it's only normal because you only get good at something when you do it - a LOT and over a LONG time.

Indeed. Seems daft sometimes how someone can have their focus completely ignore the most basic importance: tone coming out of the fingers.....how far away from the bridge you play the string/chord (i.e. making it a decision based on tone per note, not parking your hand at the end of the bridge and presto.....)....and so on. When you mention this these people look at you like McEnroe, like 'you cannot be serious?'.....lol A good acoustic player will wander between the neck joint and the bridge with his right hand hitting/picking where the tone for that note/chord is how he wants it.....

[KarmaPolice]

I agree! strumming technique is something that needs more practice than it seems. And as you say there are really good players, whose strumming
sound hurts. Lot of people also say, the harder the pick, the better, which imo for strumming is wrong.

Still some guitars are difficult! I have another acoustic, a Furch OM 32, and whatever strings I put on the strumming sound is great especially for recording.
Now the Furch is much more fancy than the yamaha (LJX6C), but I also played really cheap guitars that just "work" when you strum it. But some
guitars just have that harsh click sound.

[binarymilton]

Try out the Blueridge 'Pre-war' Guitar BR-240 or BR-243. I like them a lot. A great, and significantly cheaper, alternative to a Gibson.

I'd try out some of the Simon & Patrick and Norman family too. I've never played one that didn't have a nice tone - even the cheap ones.

[Animus]

I have a Taylor 712CE Fall Limited Imbruia (only like 60 of them made) that sounds amazing and is not the typical Taylor sound which I usually don't like. It sounds very warm and full-bodied with a sweet mellow top end, and I use DR strings on it.

[Lenzo]

Originally Posted by Animus

I have a Taylor 712CE Fall Limited Imbruia (only like 60 of them made) that sounds amazing and is not the typical Taylor sound which I usually don't like. It sounds very warm and full-bodied with a sweet mellow top end, and I use DR strings on it.

I'm not trying to start a war here, but when you say typical Taylor sound, that is so ridiculous. There is no typical Taylor sound. I own several of their maple bodied, rosewood and koa guitars. They all sound so different. Maple is very bright, rosewood is much mellower..the koa has a tone all it's own. And the tonal difference between say their 400 series and the 800 and 900 series is huge. Not trying to be a Taylor fan boy, but sometimes the statements made here are like duck's footprints in the sky.
L.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by Lenzo

I'm not trying to start a war here, but when you say typical Taylor sound, that is so ridiculous. There is no typical Taylor sound. I own several of their maple bodied, rosewood and koa guitars. They all sound so different. Maple is very bright, rosewood is much mellower..the koa has a tone all it's own. And the tonal difference between say their 400 series and the 800 and 900 series is huge. Not trying to be a Taylor fan boy, but sometimes the statements made here are like duck's footprints in the sky.
L.

hey man, I like Taylors. I have two! What I meant by that was the sound that people usually associate with Taylors however misguided, that "bright" sound, and that's the sound I don't prefer compared to some other Taylor. Of course different woods would have different tones, and Taylor is no different.

[ellmanl]

Like others posted, unless the guitar is a real dog, its in the players hands. and then its about mic placement. Getting another guitar probably wont solve the problem. I've recorded Taylors that sounded great. Might not beat a pre-war martin in a taste test, but they are professional instruments.

[pashatom]

Actually I think that a lot of difference can be had with the right pick. If you try with a really thin TS pick you will be amazed. TS can be made extra thin because they are so strong. Add to this the charming and vastly superior sound and you have an easy solution to vastly improve the acoustic-strummed sound of your Taylor without getting into more expense. I know some people are against using TS picks but the truth is nothing sounds like them and there are still many in circulation. A guitar magazine did a shootout using the very best handmade picks against real TS and it was unanimous. In fact, each of the names behind the handmade picks spoke about the particular virtue they liked about TS that they were trying to replicate in their picks. An extra thin one sounds beautiful for strumming taking out any harshness or ´clickíng´- just soft and full as you would want.

As is obviously the case you can't buy them. Find someone who has got one and try it out. Some experts now warn people NOT to try them, because once you do you can't turn back. I actually believe they are a major reason why we like so many of the guitar sounds we hear on records by famous names in the 60s and 70s. Everybody then used them although even then they were expensive. But that would be another thread!

[at4033]

Lot's of really interesting comments.

Here is where I'm at:

For close to 20 years, I've been chasing a specific sound and I don't think this particular Taylor is going to get me there. That is not to say it is a poor or inferior guitar. It is still great at many other things, and (like every Taylor I've ever had my hands on) it's a dream to play.

I've had success recording other guitars, so I'm confident the problem is not with the gear or my technique.

The one thing that the successful recordings have had in common is that most were not dreads (and the ones that were were just less aggressive sounding, or - as noted above - cheap!).

Thanks to all for making this a helpful thread for me.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by pashatom

Actually I think that a lot of difference can be had with the right pick. If you try with a really thin TS pick you will be amazed. TS can be made extra thin because they are so strong. Add to this the charming and vastly superior sound and you have an easy solution to vastly improve the acoustic-strummed sound of your Taylor without getting into more expense. I know some people are against using TS picks but the truth is nothing sounds like them and there are still many in circulation. A guitar magazine did a shootout using the very best handmade picks against real TS and it was unanimous. In fact, each of the names behind the handmade picks spoke about the particular virtue they liked about TS that they were trying to replicate in their picks. An extra thin one sounds beautiful for strumming taking out any harshness or ´clickíng´- just soft and full as you would want.

As is obviously the case you can't buy them. Find someone who has got one and try it out. Some experts now warn people NOT to try them, because once you do you can't turn back. I actually believe they are a major reason why we like so many of the guitar sounds we hear on records by famous names in the 60s and 70s. Everybody then used them although even then they were expensive. But that would be another thread!

Excuse my ignorance but what is a TS pick?

Edit: tortoise shell.

[formusic]

Originally Posted by at4033

Hi Folks,

I've grown tired of the clicky AND boomy sound I get when recording strumming on my Taylor 810. It's a wonderful guitar that excels at many things, but strumming with anything less than a very soft hand is not one of them.

My mic collection and pres should not be the impediment (I can list if it is helpful). I think I need to start at the source.

I'm posting this here because I'm looking for thoughts from an engineer point of view. I'm thinking of a Gibson J45 or J200 (though I understand these guitars can take a very long time to break in). Maybe a Martin Jumbo?

Something with tight bottom, smooth top, on the "dry" side, won't compress when strummed hard, and leaves room for vocals but does not disappear. And records well.

...Not like I'm asking for the moon...

I welcome any thoughts you may have.

Taylor's fine. I also have a little old Martin 000-28, but I usually can get a pretty good sound out of both. For strumming try using a very soft pick. Best sound IMO is when pick sound virtually disappears and you get a nice even strum, it's really like EQ/compression in a way. Soft pick, no clicking, everything gels. If it's boomy, move your mic around (pointing away from soundhole, aiming it towards your right shoulder, or over 12th fret for mellower fingerboard sound). Also, try omni instead of cardioid, then there's no proximity effect and no boominess. Experiment playing either nearer bridge, or fingerboard, or on the sound hole, until you get the sound you want acoustically, then move the mic(s) around to try reproduce it. Try different strings and gauges until you find something suitable for strumming, picking and single-line melodic stuff. If you want to double-track a strummed part, better with 2 diff. guitars, so they won't phase. Also, re-string a cheapie for Nashville high-strung parts. Nice sheen, 12-string-like. Honestly, there's a lot you can and should do before ditching a guitar. Then, you've got mic, pre, comp and EQ choices on top of that, but that's really the icing. First get the sound you imagine with all of the above. Hope it helps, it has for me over the years.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by formusic

If you want to double-track a strummed part, better with 2 diff. guitars, so they won't phase.

\

LOL...sorry, but although I think I know what you do mean using the word phase here had me cracking up......

[KevWind]

Personally I am quite pleased with my 3 Taylors as well as my Breedlove for recording. All for different reasons and sounds. I would concur with those that suggest its much more a matter of playing style, string and pic choice and mic placement.

[inwardheel]

even though i believe that guitar tone is in the hands of the player, i just wanted to jump on the bandwagon and say....

TAYLORS SOUND LIKE ATOMIC BANJOS!!!!!!!!

[James Meeker]

The first thought that came to mind was "ribbon microphone" and a GT Vipre set slow. The AT 4080 microphone would be one of the first things I'd try because it's low end handling; I'd aim this around the 15th fret up towards the headstock--this should fatten up the 'chinkiness'. I'd think about coupling that with a Neumann KM84 or possibly an Earthworks--something that tightens up low end--aimed at the body (but avoiding the sound hole). I'd probably run this into something solid state. Maybe API. Maybe Daking. Maybe something transparent like a GML.

I'd also experiment with string gauge (lighter) and pick (lighter, smaller).

Granted, this is a heck of a problem. Unhappy with the low end and the top? A lot of times the solution is playing against the type--put a "fat" chain on the thin side of the instrument and a "tight" chain around the boomy side. Balances things out.

Everything in the studio is just a problem to solve. Engineers are problem solvers. Changing the guitar could be an option, I'm just pretending that it isn't.

[zvenx]

It really is true, the one man's meat is another man's poison... I always play acoustic guitar finger picking style or with fingers when strumming, I personally dont' like the sound of guitar picks on acoustic guitars at all.. that said..took me years to find my perfect guitar and it was a taylor..I have recently also found a martin that I love, but definitely for me..taylors are the guitars that I most love.
And I rarely play acoustic guitar live..... I use it in my recordings..

rsp

[synthetic]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

The first thought that came to mind was "ribbon microphone" and a GT Vipre set slow.

I was also wondering if a ribbon mic would improve things. I've had this pick attack problem with my Taylor and have tried everything I can think of besides a ribbon (don't have one yet.)

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by synthetic

I was also wondering if a ribbon mic would improve things. I've had this pick attack problem with my Taylor and have tried everything I can think of besides a ribbon (don't have one yet.)

Acoustic guitar can be a challenge to record. I've done a fair amount of acoustic sessions, some with what I consider to be a fair degree of success. Ribbon mics are excellent for this application, although the more "modern" sounding ribbons (Royer comes to mind) aren't my personal first choice for that application.

If boominess isn't an issue I like the more "chocolatey" sounding ribbons like the Coles 4038 or RCA 44. Recently I've really liked what the AT 4080 does to things--it's in my top favorite ribbons at the moment along with the Crowley & Trippe (I'm not used to them being Shure mics yet).

I like the Royers, but they're a little too neutral for me at times. Excellent mics and good all-rounders--you can stick them on anything. Seriously, the 121/122 never sucks on a source for some reason.

I'd even contemplate putting a dynamic mic on an acoustic that was getting too much picking stridency. A condenser is probably going to make it worse if you point it the wrong way.

[latestflavor]

I do believe the OP just doesn't like the sound of a dread.

Can't blame him either. I usually need several eq's for them, which is why I never use them except in the park.

[davidmoore]

Originally Posted by at4033

Lot's of really interesting comments.

Here is where I'm at:

For close to 20 years, I've been chasing a specific sound and I don't think this particular Taylor is going to get me there. That is not to say it is a poor or inferior guitar. It is still great at many other things, and (like every Taylor I've ever had my hands on) it's a dream to play.

I've had success recording other guitars, so I'm confident the problem is not with the gear or my technique.

The one thing that the successful recordings have had in common is that most were not dreads (and the ones that were were just less aggressive sounding, or - as noted above - cheap!).

Thanks to all for making this a helpful thread for me.

I really really think your answer lies in a good Gibson j45 j50 as has already been said a few times
This why they are used alot on records.
Good luck

[pete]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

The first thought that came to mind was "ribbon microphone" and a GT Vipre set slow. The AT 4080 microphone would be one of the first things I'd try because it's low end handling; I'd aim this around the 15th fret up towards the headstock--this should fatten up the 'chinkiness'. I'd think about coupling that with a Neumann KM84 or possibly an Earthworks--something that tightens up low end--aimed at the body (but avoiding the sound hole). I'd probably run this into something solid state. Maybe API. Maybe Daking. Maybe something transparent like a GML.

I'd also experiment with string gauge (lighter) and pick (lighter, smaller).

Granted, this is a heck of a problem. Unhappy with the low end and the top? A lot of times the solution is playing against the type--put a "fat" chain on the thin side of the instrument and a "tight" chain around the boomy side. Balances things out.

Everything in the studio is just a problem to solve. Engineers are problem solvers. Changing the guitar could be an option, I'm just pretending that it isn't.

man I love your tips & tricks.. tried a vintage U47 on the 15 fret towards headstock with a old J45 - the cool thing is the more you turn away towards the headstock the less string noise (klick sound) you get..!

[at4033]

Update: I had the chance to play a J-45 Custom at a Gibson 5-star dealer. Flat out the finest acoustic I have heard or played. The entire guitar vibrates when played. I can feel it in the neck. It s exactly the sound I am looking for.

On a side note, there is definitely something to the 5-Star dealer thing. I've played several off-the-shelf J-45s and this one was MILES above any of them. I mean MILES. Time to sell the Taylor. After hearing the Gibson, it's hard to listen to the 810 anymore.

[feck]

I have a 714ce and an old beat up 1970-something Yamaha. The Yamaha has always recorded much better, which has always bugged me a bit since the Taylor is a nice guitar. I too always had clicky, bright recordings. Then I started using a single 121 into a good tube pre. Clickyness gone, warm round tone achieved. Surprised it took me that long to try it, but now it's all I use.

[Jules]

Originally Posted by at4033

Update: I had the chance to play a J-45 Custom at a Gibson 5-star dealer. Flat out the finest acoustic I have heard or played. The entire guitar vibrates when played. I can feel it in the neck. It s exactly the sound I am looking for.

On a side note, there is definitely something to the 5-Star dealer thing. I've played several off-the-shelf J-45s and this one was MILES above any of them. I mean MILES. Time to sell the Taylor. After hearing the Gibson, it's hard to listen to the 810 anymore.

Ha!

Great

1953 Gibson SJ owner here..

I want a Hummingbird now (I heard one new and it sounded, well, fine!)

[Mikdanish]

Originally Posted by pete

man I love your tips & tricks.. tried a vintage U47 on the 15 fret towards headstock with a old J45 - the cool thing is the more you turn away towards the headstock the less string noise (klick sound) you get..!

j-45 custom sounds nice.
I would say don't jump the gun, untill you've played some mid-sixties j-45/50. It takes a long time breaking in an acoustic...the sound tend to rise in complexety and nuances, proportionally with years of age.
usually you can pick up mid-60's for a fair price, especially if you go for the refins, refretted ones etc.

Personally I have tried many a time to be in "music-store-love" with a guitar...very rarely does the affection last over a week. just saying. New strings are like makeup on women...try to play the guitar for a week till the strings go "dead"...in my experience, the onces that still wants to be played and recorded with old strings, are also the onces that'l make you a happy camper for the longest time..

very best of luck!
big j-45 love to the masses!!!

[at4033]

Great advice, Mikdanish

[RBHan]

Cedar top guitars tend to be a little warmer - and a dynamic mic, Re-20 maybe.