Nut and saddle material?

[Victory Pete]

Do you think nut and saddle material affects tone?
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Nut material is out of no importance once the string is fretted. Too many different types of guitar and saddle to make a call on that one without narrowing it down a bit. Bit of a dumb question really.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Nut material is out of no importance once the string is fretted. Too many different types of guitar and saddle to make a call on that one without narrowing it down a bit. Bit of a dumb question really.

I noticed a difference in nut material. It was a noticable improvement from Corian to Bone. No it was a bit of a dumb answer.
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

I noticed a difference in nut material. It was a noticable improvement from Corian to Bone. No it was a bit of a dumb answer.
VP

My point was would you notice a difference between bone and corian on say a les paul or a strat saddle? That was the dumb bit. There are tons of different saddle arrangements so you need to be a bit more specific.

Also how can the nut effect tone once the string is fretted? I don't see it. I'm sure you may have thought you heard a difference I don't deny that.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

My point was would you notice a difference between bone and corian on say a les paul or a strat saddle? That was the dumb bit. There are tons of different saddle arrangements so you need to be a bit more specific.

Also how can the nut effect tone once the string is fretted? I don't see it. I'm sure you may have thought you heard a difference I don't deny that.

The string is still in contact under full tension with the nut along with your finger and string on the fret, What is so mysterious about that?
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

The string is still in contact under full tension with the nut along with your finger and string on the fret, What is so mysterious about that?
VP

Well, the mysterious thing is that behind the fret after the string has been fretted the string isn't moving. In fact in many cases it is in contact with other frets on the fret board. If it did vibrate it would setup sympathetic vibrations which would be quite distracting.

How can a string that isn't moving effect way a guitar sounds?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Well, the mysterious thing is that behind the fret after the string has been fretted the string isn't moving. In fact in many cases it is in contact with other frets on the fret board. If it did vibrate it would setup sympathetic vibrations which would be quite distracting.

How can a string that isn't moving effect way a guitar sounds?

I believe the fact that "The string is still in contact under full tension with the nut along with your finger and string on the fret" has alot to do with the physics involved with sustain and tone.
Thanks for the question Mutt,
VP

[wilcodeltafourO]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

I believe the fact that "The string is still in contact under full tension with the nut along with your finger and string on the fret" has alot to do with the physics involved with sustain and tone.
Thanks for the question Mutt,
VP

I think quite a few of us here would like to know more about the physics and acoustics of this and you seem to understand them quite well.

Can you explain how that might work? I can't really understand how something that is not vibrating independently can influence any of the harmonic overtones or higher partials that go into dictating the timbre of a strings sounding note?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by wilcodeltafourO

I think quite a few of us here would like to know more about the physics and acoustics of this and you seem to understand them quite well.

Can you explain how that might work? I can't really understand how something that is not vibrating independently can influence any of the harmonic overtones or higher partials that go into dictating the timbre of a strings sounding note?

No you seem to be the only one!
VP

[Victory Pete]

You cant understand how the attachment point of the string would influence the strings tone and sustain? Go back and study more of your own "alleged courses"
VP

[Victory Pete]

Hey Muttley,
You might be interested in a project a customer brought me. It is an odd handmade 5 string fretless bass. The customer wants me to spray it with Nitro and get this, wants me to install a new bridge because he says it is out of intonation.

VP


PS Of course I realize a bridge on a fretless still needs to be accurately located (the angle)

[wilcodeltafourO]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

You cant understand how the attachment point of the string would influence the strings tone and sustain? Go back and study more of your own "alleged courses"
VP

Yes but isn't the attachment point the fret not the nut? At least once it is fretted.

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

No you seem to be the only one!
VP

I'd be quite interested to learn some more about why the nut might be important on fretted notes as well. I'm struggling to see how it matters?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by wilcodeltafourO

Yes but isn't the attachment point the fret not the nut? At least once it is fretted.

I dont think so! Is your finger providing the 10 lbs or so to keep the string in tension?
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

I dont think so! Is you finger providing the 10 lbs or so to keep the string in tension?
VP

Well in that case neither is the nut (unless it's a locking nut) it's the tuners that are doing that. I still don't see how that matters either way when the string isn't vibrating behind the fret? Exactly what energy is being transferred to effect the tone?

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

I dont think so! Is you finger providing the 10 lbs or so to keep the string in tension?
VP

Is it the tension in the string that gives it its tone? This is confusing I always thought it was the way it vibrated and the relationship it has with the harmonic series. I guess I need to do some more reading up.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Is it the tension in the string that gives it its tone? This is confusing I always thought it was the way it vibrated and the relationship it has with the harmonic series. I guess I need to do some more reading up.

Of course it is the machine heads holding the tension. The nut is still part of the equation. there are many factors involving tone and sustain. The nut and saddle are just part of it.
VP

[wilcodeltafourO]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Of course it is the machine heads holding the tension. The nut is still part of the equation. there are many factors involving tone and sustain. The nut and saddle are just part of it.
VP

I don't understand how the nut material effects the tone when it is not vibrating or receiving any direct input from the string vibration? The saddle yes I can understand but not the nut.

Can you explain how things like the nut effects the strings vibration? It would also help me understand if you could explain what other things are important you seem to be quite clued up about this stuff and I'm just trying to get my head round it.

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by wilcodeltafourO

I don't understand how the nut material effects the tone when it is not vibrating or receiving any direct input from the string vibration? The saddle yes I can understand but not the nut.

Can you explain how things like the nut effects the strings vibration? It would also help me understand if you could explain what other things are important you seem to be quite clued up about this stuff and I'm just trying to get my head round it.

Perfectly put. Thats exactly what I'm struggling to get my head round? I'm genuinely confused now. I always thought that tension dictated the pitch and not the tone.

[gehauser]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Do you think nut and saddle material affects tone?
VP

Can't speak about the nut, but I had my plastic saddle replaced with a bone saddle on my 1976 Martin D-35 and could tell a big difference in tone. The guitar is louder and sweeter sounding with the bone saddle.

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by gehauser

Can't speak about the nut, but I had my plastic saddle replaced with a bone saddle on my 1976 Martin D-35 and could tell a big difference in tone. The guitar is louder and sweeter sounding with the bone saddle.

Yeh. I can see how a saddle change is going to do that. Essentially as I understand it the top of the guitar is driven by the bridge and bridge plate which in turn is driven by the saddle and the energy in the string. Making a change to that delicate coupling would appear to be quite significant. I can't see how the nut is as important once the string is fretted though..

Hopefully Victory Pete will explain later.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by wilcodeltafourO

I don't understand how the nut material effects the tone when it is not vibrating or receiving any direct input from the string vibration? The saddle yes I can understand but not the nut.

Can you explain how things like the nut effects the strings vibration? It would also help me understand if you could explain what other things are important you seem to be quite clued up about this stuff and I'm just trying to get my head round it.

It is funny, you and Talcum both use the same expression "get my head around" I know you are using aliases here Muttley600!
VP

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Perfectly put. Thats exactly what I'm struggling to get my head round? I'm genuinely confused now. I always thought that tension dictated the pitch and not the tone.

It is funny, you and Wilcodelta both use the same expression "get my head around" I know you are using aliases here Muttley600!
VP

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by skydog

to the O.P.......yes.
I prefer bone nut/saddle and brass for the bridge pins while we are on this general subject.I have friend that has an old Yari w/brass the whole way around that is a little too much in that direction for me,but nice to play and uniquely voiced.tusq and corian work and sound o.k. and are consistent in most cases and much better than regular plastic.graphite is a tone killer to me and do not like it anywhere on the ax.

Thanks for your genuine response! It is helpful. There are some trouble makers here from HomeRecording.com who like to harrass me.
VP

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by gehauser

Can't speak about the nut, but I had my plastic saddle replaced with a bone saddle on my 1976 Martin D-35 and could tell a big difference in tone. The guitar is louder and sweeter sounding with the bone saddle.

I thank you also!
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

It is funny, you and Wilcodelta both use the same expression "get my head around" I know you are using aliases here Muttley600!
VP

Can you just answer some of the questions that have been raised instead of continuing whatever feud you have? There have been quite a few questions raised in relation to the original post can you answer them?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Can you just answer some of the questions that have been raised instead of continuing whatever feud you have? There have been quite a few questions raised in relation to the original post can you answer them?

Okay, I'll bite. The answer is yes.
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Okay, I'll bite. The answer is yes.
VP

Well? Seriously I would like to know, how does the nut effect the timbre of the instrument when it is not attached to the vibrating string. Thats one of the questions and one I have been asking all along. There are others in this thread but maybe you could give us some insight or some connection to the science that would make sense or is it more complicated than that? I want to learn and you seen to have some ideas that are key to understanding it.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Well? Seriously I would like to know, how does the nut effect the timbre of the instrument when it is not attached to the vibrating string. Thats one of the questions and one I have been asking all along. There are others in this thread but maybe you could give us some insight or some connection to the science that would make sense or is it more complicated than that? I want to learn and you seen to have some ideas that are key to understanding it.

My Martins tell me everytime they sing to me!
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

So just let me get this right? The nut material effects the tone of a guitar regardless of the fact that the string may be fretted because..

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

My Martins tell me everytime they sing to me!
VP

????