Acoustic Guitar Recording Techniques

[bradfordswood]

Hey all,
I'm planning on recording some demos of my solo acoustic guitar pieces coming up here pretty soon. I was planning on doing a stereo pair of Shure KSM141's, most likely using either X/Y technique or ORTF. Should I go ahead and buy some more expensive mics? Should I use more than two mics?

Also, what is the best way to get reverb on an acoustic guitar without using digital plug ins during post production?

Thanks,
Brad

[FFTT]

If it's a demo, I wouldn't spend a bunch on more expensive gear.

Reverb, a tile bathroom or concrete hallway can do wonders.

[billgennaro]

the shure mics should work just fine. try x/y, ortif, spaced pair, etc. try 'em all and see which suits your style. i like the typical mic at the 12th fret thing, but then i hang a second mic over my right shoulder pointing down toward the soundhole/bridge area. works well for me. anyway, whatever suits you is what you should go with.

bill

[IainDearg]

The following is a copy and paste of something I wrote on another forum, not too far from here…

I read a lot of huffing and puffing about acoustic guitar recording strategies, and, to be honest, it caused me a lot of heartache for a while. I describe below how I ended up for my CD, and beyond. (Note this is primarily intented for solo guitar, or guitar and vox, tracked separately.)

I’m afraid I’ve given up entirely on spaced mic techniques for guitar recording. I only use X/Y setup with small diaphragm condensers. (I would try mid-side, but I don’t have a figure-8 mic.)

My reasons for my X/Y setup are threefold:

1. When I listen back through a hi-fi system at normal listening distance, a guitar recorded with a spaced technique sounds unrealistically big - in fact it sounds about 12ft wide! This might sound impressive to some, but it makes me nauseous.

2. Phase cancellation. No matter how big it sounds in stereo, if I hit the mono button on the recording console, the middle of the guitar disappears leaving the sides hovering disembodied in space. More nausea. (Maybe that has more to do with my skill at setting up a spaced pair, but for the other two reasons, It’s now academic.)

3. To a listener in an audience any further than 6 feet away, the guitar is a mono source. Any stereo information is by virtue of room reflections.

So this is how I proceed: I use two Neumann KM 184s in the X/Y configuration, about 18″ from the guitar. These mics aren’t matched, but I don’t consider that so important. (Sidebar: I had actually recorded more than 30 guitar parts using ORTF before being forced to admit it wasn’t going to work for me and had to abandon them and start again using X/Y.) Now, (some folks say that) X/Y can appear to give a very tight stereo image, but it truth I find the image more realistic - and anyway, if the image needs a bit of stretching I can use a bit of mid-side processing.
The future? I’m considering getting a figure-of-8 and do some M/S for real for the next record. Or two, and do Blumlein. This gear purchasing never stops…

(Now an A/B setup with mics pointed at saddle & neck / body joint can sound fantastic - just make sure you audition in mono. Mono-compatabililty doesn’t matter to a lot of folks, but it does to me - so I don’t use it.)

[kissingonstilts]

I've had the best luck with a single high-quality mic in a nice room. I'd go with a KM84, Schoeps CMC6/MK21 (or MK4), or, if you like the tube thing, a KM54 (or the right U47 - or the Wunder CM7).

My experience has been that the stereo mics add more than I like - the "Thoreau ethic" has been the most beautiful to my ear (simplify, simplify, simplify).

[midnightsun]

I have spent the past several weeks obsessing over this very issue. My requirements were that my final sound would sound equally as good in mono as stereo. I tried everything from a single mic to matched stereo mics using X-Y, spaced pairs, ORTF, M-S, and Blumlein. My two favorites were Blumlein and M-S. I favored the Blumlein because the unique tones from stereo recording could be maintained in mono. With the M-S approach when subjected to mono the ambience gets lost and the recording virtually is single mic.

Here is what I did that works consistently well for me. Set up a coincident matched pair of figure of 8's at 90 degree angles (Blumlein). Record each mic to it's seperate track but monitor in mono. If I am recording myself then I need a good set of isolation headphones. Move the Blumlein pair around until the sound is what I am after. Run the two tracks through a correlation meter to make sure that there aren't any major phase issues. Then I record. When I am mixing in stereo I blend the two channels for tonal taste and pan each channel right or left for desired stereo depth. When I use this approach my instrument doesn't turn to shit when I go from stereo to mono or visa versa.

[M.T.Pilot]

Hi folks,

I am used to recording electric gutiars, but want to start using my accoustic in recordings as well. Being totally inexperienced at it, I'd like to ask why it is better (if it is..) to use TWO mics to record accoustic guitars instead of one...

regards,

M.T.Pilot

[kats]

Because you need two mics to have a realistic stereo recording (like you have two ears).
-----------------------

To the original poster, I preffer MS recordings when it's just gtr or gtr/vox. It's nice to have a stereo image when that's all that's going on in the song. As far as MS going mono, I usually don't worry about that because mono playback is usually in non critical listening enviroments anyhow - like night clubs, restaurants etc. But the nice thing is that I can adjust the stereo image to taste using MS.

"Blumlein" in great sounding rooms.

"XY" I like in a not so dense mixes where there is still space to appreciate a stereo acoustic - ususally SDC's, but Ive had neat results with Beyer M160 ribbons (Hyper Cardiod) in XY...

For the rest, like full band mixes that get pretty thick - I like mono AcGtr with a high quality LDC or depending on what we're after I like ribbons.


Those are my ususal starting places if I'm planning ahead, but no hard rules about it - sometimes we just go with whatever's plugged in.

[smoore98]

old thread revived. I have been trying different things and perhaps this will help someone:

Shure SM81 at 10 - 12th fret, and the Peluso 2247LE behind the ear, both using the Chandler TG-2 pre and the Neve Portico 5043 compressor did the trick for me. Pan full left and right. VERY happy with it.

[dr_love6977]

I have a question about M/S. I really like it, but why does the left channel seem to be louder when I raise the volume of the L and R tracks for the side mic? They are equal at lower levels, but as I bring them up, the L seems to start to over power the R. Anyone else notice this?

[Old Goat]

You phase flipping one? You may get some cancellation of the mid signal, making the other seem louder, and yes, I've noticed it , too. I usually adjust the pan until it evens out and sounds right. That's probably not SOP, but it's what I got...

[dr_love6977]

Originally Posted by Old Goat

You phase flipping one? You may get some cancellation of the mid signal, making the other seem louder, and yes, I've noticed it , too. I usually adjust the pan until it evens out and sounds right. That's probably not SOP, but it's what I got...

Yep, I'm phase flipping one.

[robinbjerke]

Originally Posted by bradfordswood

Also, what is the best way to get reverb on an acoustic guitar without using digital plug ins during post production?

You could buy a standalone reverb unit.

Though the best way would be to use the natural room sound. Most likely you wont want to use the sound from your living room or sch, but try seeing if there are places in your area you could use for a couple of hours. I have had great results recording acoustic guitar in chapels, various halls and large recording spaces. Use the room, for that is what a reverb is.

You can also check out a blog post I wrote today about recording an acoustic guitar : http://lydhjornet.blogspot.com/2010/...ic-guitar.html

hope it helps

[Pasta4lnch]

Originally Posted by bradfordswood

Should I go ahead and buy some more expensive mics? Should I use more than two mics?

fwiw I have been on a quest to get an acoustic tone I want. I've tried everything (I have a pretty darn selection of high end mics and access to really juicy guitars) but in the end my fav is a plain 'ole 57 on the neck joint (a little more into the hole for boom) and the part doubled

[FFTT]

I just watched this enlightening video from Greg V.

Completely non-invasive method to mic and amplify your fine, non-electric
acoustics.

[midnightsun]

Looks like the K & K system would be fun to experiment with, especially for live acoustic guitar. I presume that with the video FFTT just posted that the mic signal goes through the Meridian box and then to the amp, and the amp is them mic'd and recorded!!! Whatever the setup it sounds nice. The recording sounds a bit "electric" and in your face but I'm sure that choices were made to get than particular sound for his examples. I would like to hear the K & K system tweeked so that it sounds a bit smother.

[FFTT]

I was looking at that too and thinking for modern live concert work,
that you would bind the pre amp to your wireless send device belt,
then direct to the PA and monitor returns.
Otherwise you risk tripping on the mic cable and could break it or disconnect
by accident.

So it looks like you can go to an amp or go direct as desired.

It would be real interesting to see how it performs at live band volumes
resisting feedback.

[midnightsun]

For live acoustic and occasional studio I have enjoyed years of contentment with the Pendulum SPS-1 Pendulum SPS-1 Stereo Preamp For Acoustic Instruments Greg Gualtieri's unique design utilizes a low impedance cable from the acoustic guitar to the preamp. If I want I can blend two pickup from the guitar or the (piezo, Sunrise, internal mic, etc) from the small plugin box and keep all preamps out the the nice guitar. The SPS-1 allows me to EQ each channel separately. This is a very stable setup, never failed in about a decade and allows from crafting a good, live acoustic sound.

Nevertheless, I think that it would be fun to try out the K & K system.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by bradfordswood

Hey all,
I'm planning on recording some demos of my solo acoustic guitar pieces coming up here pretty soon. I was planning on doing a stereo pair of Shure KSM141's, most likely using either X/Y technique or ORTF. Should I go ahead and buy some more expensive mics? Should I use more than two mics?

Also, what is the best way to get reverb on an acoustic guitar without using digital plug ins during post production?

Thanks,
Brad

So many options...
X-Y is cool, but consider using one more mic as a room mic about 5 or 6 feet away.
Assign an outboard stereo reverb only to that 1 room mic, you could print it while tracking...it sounds great

[olguitar]

Look, the guitar is not a stereo instrument, really. You simply cannot get two similar sound sources on tape with out some phasing or combing. If the goal is to capture the sound of a particular instrument (as opposed to "good guitar sound" then go with one good mic. If, on the other hand, you want the guitar to sound 12 feet wide, whatever works for you, but understand that that is not what an acoustic guitar sounds like in any real space.

[kats]

Originally Posted by olguitar

Look, the guitar is not a stereo instrument, really. You simply cannot get two similar sound sources on tape with out some phasing or combing. If the goal is to capture the sound of a particular instrument (as opposed to "good guitar sound" then go with one good mic. If, on the other hand, you want the guitar to sound 12 feet wide, whatever works for you, but understand that that is not what an acoustic guitar sounds like in any real space.

Perhaps the guitar itself, like most things, is not a stereo instrument - but the world is.

Unless you listen to music with a finger in one of your ears, we hear EVERYTHING in stereo.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by kats

Perhaps the guitar itself, like most things, is not a stereo instrument - but the world is.

Unless you listen to music with a finger in one of your ears, we hear EVERYTHING in stereo.

Haha...funny

[Tommy like sound]

This is funny, the person for whom we are arguing this question asked it three years ago. I hope he's finished his demo now! Either way, beginners should probably stick to coincident mic techniques, and I'm gonna agree that at least two mics is necessary. Use XY if the room sucks and consider using blumelien or MS if it doesn't. In either case a good reverb will work wonders so long as it's properly tamed. I'm gonna be unorthodox and mention that brand new guitar strings don't translate as well for me as week old ones, which is just as well because they don't hold their tuning either. And for those of you petrified of scary 12 foot guitars, I'd suggest looking into a stereo imaging tool and narrowing the field. That said, maybe your monitors are too far apart.

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by kats

Perhaps the guitar itself, like most things, is not a stereo instrument - but the world is.

Unless you listen to music with a finger in one of your ears, we hear EVERYTHING in stereo.

when you are in a club watching a band, do the drums sound stereo to you?
as in, you hear the ride cymbal in one ear and the hi hat in the other and the toms are panned L/R to a degree???

it sure doesnt sound like that to me.

nor does any other instrument sound stereo in a room for that matter.

while it may be true that we "hear" in stereo because we have 2 ears, we do not perceive things in the room with us as sounding stereo as we do when listening to a traditional L/R stereo speaker setup playing back stereo tracks.

[olguitar]

And how do you propose to get rid of the combing issues? it simply doesn't sound like a guitar in that setting. By the way, I'm a professional instrumental acoustic guitarist, have been for nearly 40 years and I work a lot. I've tried nearly every micing technique that's been discussed and a few that haven't. I listen to other players a lot as well as other instruments and I do so with an open mind. What I want to hear is the natural sound, or as close to it as I can get. This is clearly a case of less is more.

It might be interesting for members of this discussion to post some of their recordings of acoustic guitar as examples. I'd sure be willing to do that, once I figure out how!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by olguitar

And how do you propose to get rid of the combing issues? it simply doesn't sound like a guitar in that setting. By the way, I'm a professional instrumental acoustic guitarist, have been for nearly 40 years and I work a lot. I've tried nearly every micing technique that's been discussed and a few that haven't. I listen to other players a lot as well as other instruments and I do so with an open mind. What I want to hear is the natural sound, or as close to it as I can get. This is clearly a case of less is more.

It might be interesting for members of this discussion to post some of their recordings of acoustic guitar as examples. I'd sure be willing to do that, once I figure out how!

Oh, you're a guitarist, that explains it. You are a rare find. There are hardly any guitarists around here.

Mic it however you want. I hear the guitar with 2 ears. So i record with 2 mics. It sounds good to me. The end...
I no pro guitarist,im sure not as great as Mr. Olguitar, but here's a sample. SM81's in XY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8laWl5bog

Here's one with just a single SM57. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdHGC-_m5aE

What's with all the right fighters on GS? Love this board, but it drives me nuts sometimes.

[olguitar]

I certainly wasn't showing you any disrespect in any way. I expect the same from you. I'm simply sharing my experiences; you certainly don't have to agree, but there's not need to respond like that.

[kats]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

when you are in a club watching a band, do the drums sound stereo to you?
as in, you hear the ride cymbal in one ear and the hi hat in the other and the toms are panned L/R to a degree???

it sure doesnt sound like that to me.

nor does any other instrument sound stereo in a room for that matter.

Really? You cannot hear the ambient reflections in stereo?

Yet you can hear a pin drop with your eyes closed and know approximately where it lands... I wonder how that works?

Stereo mic'ing does not mean spot/close mic'ing single instruments and panning them where ever the hell you want.

Stereo mic'ing is a science. You are capturing the ambient reflections in true stereo as well as the position of the instrument in relation to the placement of the mic.

Originally Posted by olguitar

What I want to hear is the natural sound, or as close to it as I can get.

Are you sure about that? Or do you want to stick a mic 4" off the neck and make a recording devoid of any room sound and pretend that it's natural?

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by kats

Perhaps the guitar itself, like most things, is not a stereo instrument - but the world is.

Unless you listen to music with a finger in one of your ears, we hear EVERYTHING in stereo.

Stereo does mean different things to different people. A brain gathers spacial information from two ears. Simplistically, volume and phase from each ear hearing the same sound source are processed by the brain to give spacial information. The brain not only perceives sound source location, but also environmental dimensional information.

A listener with two ears hears an acoustic guitar playing in a room, and for the most part the difference between the information of both ears provides information about the sound space. So the ideal recorded listening experience would be to have a sound source eminating from speaker(s) covering a footprint roughly the size of the guitar in a room identical room in which the guitar was initially recorded.

Of course this not really practical. Stereo in music treats the brain to enjoyable information, but has little to do with spacial relationships as if the music were being listened to "live."

I often use two matched mics to record acoustic guitar. On one had this would be considered stereo recording. However, I don't necessarily use this two tracks to create separate L/R information for the speakers.

I use two mics to record acoustic guitar to capture a more realistic, natural tone or guitar sound. This only works if the mics are coincident or the summing introduces phase problems. Again, Blumlein invented the XY approach for recording before we had stereo reproduction.

I think stereo speakers have little or nothing to do with a recorded acoustic guitar sounding real. Capturing the proper balance of tones has everything to do with the acoustic guitar sounding real. Thus, I use two mics in order to blend tones rather than to create spacial information.

In the end I will carefully create some spacial information by either panning the summed blend a bit right or left. If the stereo image ends up to wide, that certainly doesn't sound real.

[Ron Vogel]

I don't think I'm doing anything special, but it seems different techniques are needed for different material. I personally never do a stereo type thing, because like previously stated, an acoustic guitar is not a stereo instrument. I like to use 2 diferently toned mics, then mix them together. If I want the giutar to occupy more space, I slightly spread the 2 channels a bit, then fill the rest of the space with a room verb. IE: ac panned left, 1ch at 20% left, the other channel at 30% left.

I find that it's truly a quest with my cheap gear to get a good acoustic sound, but it can be done. I have also tried to get away from always using a '57 as one of the mics...but it always sounds better with one...