[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Correction - the post is in the hiphop+rap forum, so I have strong assumption that the OP wants to get a career into urban music

The OP happens to be a personal acquaintance (and client), so I can assure you his aspirations reach far beyond working in any one single genre.

That said, I hear where you're coming from, and it's a valid point, but the point I'm trying to get across is at the earliest stages of one's career, it's best to gather as much knowledge in as many styles, techniques, and genres as possible. You never know what you're going to be asked to work on down the line, and the more you learn at the beginning, the better equipped you'll be to handle those surprises.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Your not serious are you?

Yes, I am serious.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

wow... once again your not serious are you? To speacialize is the key, being gernerally good at a lot of things compared to being really really good at one means you will be recording small local bands for the rest of your life, while you flip pages of SOS and Mix daydreaming...

Tell that to the likes of Rick Ruben, Brendan O'Brien, Andrew Schneider, Tony Maserati, the list goes on...

Specialization is great, but the fact is that most people make their livings doing a bit of everything; it's a much more realistic goal and for a lot of us (myself in particular), it's a lot more rewarding. I record a great deal of small local bands, and I make a good living doing it, and to be honest, that IS my dream. When I land bigger gigs, it's great, but I didn't sign up to become a superstar engineer, I signed up to work on records I love.

I'm not saying people shouldn't shoot for the stars and work to become a mega-star mixer that works only in their favorite genre, I'm just saying that given the INSANE amount of hard work and dedication the job requires, some folks might wanna reconsider their priorities.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Both actually, and I took into consideration that in hiphop the producer is often the engineer.

I'm not sure this is the case, at least after a certain level. Every "name" rap artist I've ever worked with has had a whole slew of producers and only one, separate, engineer (in those cases, me). Certainly the mixing engineer is almost always someone else.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

you cant learn greatness, an engineer can "show you tips" but that wont make you great, there are tons of pros here on GS and 10 times more ametures, and the pros share tips everyday, yet I dont hear any of the ametures getting noticably better, or landing bigger customers...

To the contrary, I think people learn quite a lot and I've heard some pretty remarkable improvements. That said, you can't learn by reading tips. You hafta watch and, more importantly, LISTEN to someone execute those tips, and after a while, you'll understand how and when they apply to your specific situations.

Again, this can be learned at home (read GS, try the tip, repeat till you get it), but I believe it's much faster to watch someone do it, in a great room, on great gear, with great monitoring, and then have the opportunity to ask them questions about their approach as they're working.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

of course if you have the oppertunity to go to a pro studio, its a no brainer, do it!! but Its a question of money, - basic math, 10 sessions at 600 dollars is 6000 dollars what kind of "home" setup could you get with that, and what is more profitable in the future - 60 hours with an engineer or better equipment at home.

$6k worth of gear is useless if you can't get the most out of it. For me, a quality recording is worth much more than the gear I could have bought for the same money. You only get one first impression, and a sloppy recording wreaking of amateurism ain't much of a first impression.

If you're a musician interested in engineering (like the OP), you'll get far more out of a day or three in the studio than you will outta blowing $1500 on gear. The music will sound better, you'll learn more about the craft, and you'll have a shit load of fun (even a tightass like Story was able to mellow out and enjoy our time together I kid! I kid!).

A $6k home setup would barely offer up enough quality to justify charging clients. At least, serious clients who are familiar with the recording process (and higher-end studios).

I'd frankly suggest saving that $6k altogether, finding an internship, and living off the saved dough for as long as possible.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

no its not - but its a start, which was my point. Go around and ask how many hiphop acts used live drums - very few...

Incidentally, the OP's group uses live drums, but it's about a lot more than just recording a drum kit. Learning to record drums teaches you volumes about phase relationships, microphone placement, and ambience capture that informs every other aspect of your skill (or lack thereof) as a tracking engineer, and to some degree, as a mixing engineer.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

then you pop bottles and celebrate, if they asked you then that means they like your sound. Meanwhile you come on GS and hire an engineer who became a generalist to be your hands, and you tell him what to do.

That makes you a producer, not an engineer.

Not to mention, you may not have any say in additional hires (you probably don't).

Not to mention, the GS engineer who became the generalist might just land your job next time around. Like I said, that's how a lot of us get our foot in the door. Do you really wanna tell the producer, "Hey, thanks for hiring me to engineer, but I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm just gonna hire this other guy to be my hands"?

Oh, and last but not least, if you are allowed to hire in an engineer who knows how to do the job, guess who's pay it comes out of...? And if you're hired as an engineer, you're gonna make a day rate (no points, no extras, none of that crap), which is probably about what you're gonna need to pay the "GS generalist engineer" who actually knows how to do the job, which means you're left with nothin'. Not a good business plan.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

600 dollars a day to enjoy the leather couch and cappacino machine right - meanwhile the engineer isn't doing anything i couldn't do myself, Its just a matter of learning

Well, like I said, all things being equal on the engineering front, the clients are gonna enjoy that leather couch and cappuccino machine. The thing is, I suspect for most people, the pro engineer in the pro facility is doing things the home guys actually COULDN'T do themselves. You could very well be an exceptional talent, and capable of delivering insanely good results from your own personal rig. But that's not the norm, and it's certainly not something that happens without years of experience, so once again, getting back to the idea of the beginner who is trying to learn the ropes, the pro studio is gonna be much faster and much more involved.

Anyway, I just realized a very glaring flaw in this discussion: you're talking about your clients. The problem is, newbies don't have clients, so they're stuck working on their own stuff. THAT puts them at a huge disadvantage; relating to clients is 80% (or more!) of the game, and can't be learned mixing your own tunes in your bedroom.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

The user shouldnt just go nut and buy equipment he doenst know how to operate - and that isnt my point, its a slow process, of learning... and also a studio that charges 600 dollars a day, isnt a "great" studio - we're not at hifactory, at best you get a PT HD setup with a couple of nice outboards - with a location that is nice. But if you have to choose between 6k of studio time to "learn from a pro" of 6k worth of gear - what will you choose?

My studio charges $550, including engineering. Our outboard list is vast, we have a desk, and 3000 sq feet of great acoustics. My buddy has a Neve studio for about $600/day, with a collection of vintage outboard that would melt your face (not to mention a couple of the best engineers in the area working the place). I've booked world-renowned, $1200/day rooms for half that price...in other words cost isn't really the determining factor in studio quality.