Gearslutz.com - View Single Post - Lets play "School the Noob" console confusion!!

FeatheredSerpent · 19th February 2009

I think there are more pressing matters than syncing analogue consoles with regards to your knowledge building

Think it through logically. Signal flow through your system is the most basic thing you need to understand.

Youøre talking as if the daw is going to do things off its own back. Nothing will be recorded into a daw unless you have directed a signal to an input and have pressed record.

Understand the mixer in your daw software first, and the principles of hard disk recording, then you will see how similar to an analogue console/tape machine it is (although there are some major differences especially with bussing).
You also need to understand the differences between analogue and digital signals/data. Basically you need to get reading, the links provided above will tell you everything you need to know, but here's a quick rundown:

Your audio interface provides you with physical inputs and outputs that feed to and from your daw software, right?
You plug your synth or a mic into your interface, this is an analogue signal. Even if the synth is a digital one, the actual audio being output from the synth is an analogue signal (so long as it is coming from an analogue output).

You create 2 audio tracks in your daw mixer, and you set them so they are receiving signal from the same physical inputs on the audio interface that you have your synth and mic signals coming in on.
You press record and the signals are recorded to their own tracks, stored on hard disk.
Once stored on hard disk, they are now playing back through the daw mixer, and you can add insert effects, change levels with the fader, use eq, send the signal to an aux track with reverb etc, by using the functions in your daw's mixer.

Now look at the analogue equivalent, it's exactly the same.
You have the synth and mic coming into the physical inputs on the desk, you route them to a multi-track tape machine and press record.
They are then stored on tape.

So here's the first real difference. The mixer and tape machine in the analogue world are two seperate components, whereas in your daw they are one and the same, but still operating on exactly the same principles.

So when you playback the tracks from tape, you have to route them physically from the tape machine to the console again. You don't need to do this in a daw because the daw is a tape machine and mixer that have been integrated together. Get it?

Now once the tracks from tape are coming back into the console, you would do exactly the same things as you did in your daw mixer, you will use the faders, eq, inserts and sends to achieve the desired result.

Youøve been using a control surface to control your daw's mixer, so you know all ready the benefit of being able to use your hands to mix rather than a mouse, but there are other reasons to use an analogue desk over the daw mixer.
A certain desk may give you a certain sound that you like just fom passing signal through it, or maybe because its preamps sound nicer than your audio interface when you drive them hard, or you may find it absolutely necessary to have the kind of 'zero latency' monitoring a desk can provide when tracking.

Back to the point though, which is how do you use an analogue mixer with a daw when the daw is the only tape machine you have (and remember that is exactly what it is, it is a glorified multitrack tape machine that just so happens to have a mixer and effects and even instruments built in.

When you have an analogue console/desk (I'm English and these two words mean the same thing to me, ie 'mixer'), then you have your hardware instruments hooked up to its inputs - synths/mics/direct in from bass, whatever it might be.

Each of those channels on the desk will have a direct out. This output you will connect to a multichannel audio interface (yes, you still need the interface, otherwise how does the signal get into the computer?!).

So each channel on the desk feeds an input on the interface, wihich will allow those channels to be recorded onto their own tracks in your daw software.
That audio interface also needs to have enough outputs to be able to send all those tracks back out into individual channels on the desk for mixing. Now you can see that you have seperated the tape machine and mixer components of the daw, and because it now is acting as a tape machine only, you need to physically route the playback channels back to the hardware mixer, just as you would do with an analogue tape machine.
In your mind, you need to seperate the processes so you understand each one, tracking (recording) is one thing, mixing is another.

But the important thing is that you see that you never need to touch a daw fader or other daw mixer control.
You set the recording levels from the source and from the preamp/desk, that signal is recorded digitally into the daw via the audio interface. When you play back from the daw, you are hearing what you recorded, again you don't need to touch the daw fader, once the signal is recorded and is playing back thorugh the desk, that's where you do your mixing.

When the track is mixed, you can either just record it back to the daw as a stereo mix (by routing the desk's stereo outs to the audio interface), or you can record stems (groups of like instruments/sounds, with or without effects) etc.
A hybrid approach is when you use both the daw and the mixer/outboard to get your result, you could use the sends on the desk to route signals to a plug-in processor you like for example, or you could insert plug-in compressors on the recorded audio track before it comes back out to the desk if you don't have enough hardware compressors etc.
This relates exactly to what the poster above was saying about the patchbay.
You need to have a system in place that allows you to send signals in, through and out both the desk and the daw in whatever manner you see fit.
You accomplish this by having an audio interface that has enough inputs and outputs to accommodate the maximum amount of simultaneous signal movement that you could possibly envisage (and then add a few more!).

Automation is the same whether it's on an analoge console that supports it or in the daw itself. You are recording mixing moves to a computer, and have the computer play them back.
With an analogue console, those moves are recorded to its own computer that is dedicated to the task. Also remember that automation is not always digital, many analogue consoles have analogue automation systems, but I know very little about how those actually work, other than it's based on voltage changes obviously, so can't explain it to you!

But as an analogy, I have a desk that records and plays back my automation moves via midi, as the desk has built-in midi ports.
I could have an Atari ST hooked up to the desk dedicated just to recording and playing back those automation moves, completely independently of my daw. That's the principle. (I don't though, I just keep a dedicated midi port on my audio interface hooked up to the desk and read and write automation info to a midi track in cubase, but you get the idea).

Same with timecode, it is not neccessarily a digital signal - smpte timecode is striped onto analogue tape. Just remember that everythign that happens in the digital world is inspired by what is possible in the analogue world, and has its counterpart there.
Once you understand how things happen in the analogue domain, you will better understand what is going on in your daw.

19th February 2009	#16
FeatheredSerpent Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,442	I think there are more pressing matters than syncing analogue consoles with regards to your knowledge building Think it through logically. Signal flow through your system is the most basic thing you need to understand. Youøre talking as if the daw is going to do things off its own back. Nothing will be recorded into a daw unless you have directed a signal to an input and have pressed record. Understand the mixer in your daw software first, and the principles of hard disk recording, then you will see how similar to an analogue console/tape machine it is (although there are some major differences especially with bussing). You also need to understand the differences between analogue and digital signals/data. Basically you need to get reading, the links provided above will tell you everything you need to know, but here's a quick rundown: Your audio interface provides you with physical inputs and outputs that feed to and from your daw software, right? You plug your synth or a mic into your interface, this is an analogue signal. Even if the synth is a digital one, the actual audio being output from the synth is an analogue signal (so long as it is coming from an analogue output). You create 2 audio tracks in your daw mixer, and you set them so they are receiving signal from the same physical inputs on the audio interface that you have your synth and mic signals coming in on. You press record and the signals are recorded to their own tracks, stored on hard disk. Once stored on hard disk, they are now playing back through the daw mixer, and you can add insert effects, change levels with the fader, use eq, send the signal to an aux track with reverb etc, by using the functions in your daw's mixer. Now look at the analogue equivalent, it's exactly the same. You have the synth and mic coming into the physical inputs on the desk, you route them to a multi-track tape machine and press record. They are then stored on tape. So here's the first real difference. The mixer and tape machine in the analogue world are two seperate components, whereas in your daw they are one and the same, but still operating on exactly the same principles. So when you playback the tracks from tape, you have to route them physically from the tape machine to the console again. You don't need to do this in a daw because the daw is a tape machine and mixer that have been integrated together. Get it? Now once the tracks from tape are coming back into the console, you would do exactly the same things as you did in your daw mixer, you will use the faders, eq, inserts and sends to achieve the desired result. Youøve been using a control surface to control your daw's mixer, so you know all ready the benefit of being able to use your hands to mix rather than a mouse, but there are other reasons to use an analogue desk over the daw mixer. A certain desk may give you a certain sound that you like just fom passing signal through it, or maybe because its preamps sound nicer than your audio interface when you drive them hard, or you may find it absolutely necessary to have the kind of 'zero latency' monitoring a desk can provide when tracking. Back to the point though, which is how do you use an analogue mixer with a daw when the daw is the only tape machine you have (and remember that is exactly what it is, it is a glorified multitrack tape machine that just so happens to have a mixer and effects and even instruments built in. When you have an analogue console/desk (I'm English and these two words mean the same thing to me, ie 'mixer'), then you have your hardware instruments hooked up to its inputs - synths/mics/direct in from bass, whatever it might be. Each of those channels on the desk will have a direct out. This output you will connect to a multichannel audio interface (yes, you still need the interface, otherwise how does the signal get into the computer?!). So each channel on the desk feeds an input on the interface, wihich will allow those channels to be recorded onto their own tracks in your daw software. That audio interface also needs to have enough outputs to be able to send all those tracks back out into individual channels on the desk for mixing. Now you can see that you have seperated the tape machine and mixer components of the daw, and because it now is acting as a tape machine only, you need to physically route the playback channels back to the hardware mixer, just as you would do with an analogue tape machine. In your mind, you need to seperate the processes so you understand each one, tracking (recording) is one thing, mixing is another. But the important thing is that you see that you never need to touch a daw fader or other daw mixer control. You set the recording levels from the source and from the preamp/desk, that signal is recorded digitally into the daw via the audio interface. When you play back from the daw, you are hearing what you recorded, again you don't need to touch the daw fader, once the signal is recorded and is playing back thorugh the desk, that's where you do your mixing. When the track is mixed, you can either just record it back to the daw as a stereo mix (by routing the desk's stereo outs to the audio interface), or you can record stems (groups of like instruments/sounds, with or without effects) etc. A hybrid approach is when you use both the daw and the mixer/outboard to get your result, you could use the sends on the desk to route signals to a plug-in processor you like for example, or you could insert plug-in compressors on the recorded audio track before it comes back out to the desk if you don't have enough hardware compressors etc. This relates exactly to what the poster above was saying about the patchbay. You need to have a system in place that allows you to send signals in, through and out both the desk and the daw in whatever manner you see fit. You accomplish this by having an audio interface that has enough inputs and outputs to accommodate the maximum amount of simultaneous signal movement that you could possibly envisage (and then add a few more!). Automation is the same whether it's on an analoge console that supports it or in the daw itself. You are recording mixing moves to a computer, and have the computer play them back. With an analogue console, those moves are recorded to its own computer that is dedicated to the task. Also remember that automation is not always digital, many analogue consoles have analogue automation systems, but I know very little about how those actually work, other than it's based on voltage changes obviously, so can't explain it to you! But as an analogy, I have a desk that records and plays back my automation moves via midi, as the desk has built-in midi ports. I could have an Atari ST hooked up to the desk dedicated just to recording and playing back those automation moves, completely independently of my daw. That's the principle. (I don't though, I just keep a dedicated midi port on my audio interface hooked up to the desk and read and write automation info to a midi track in cubase, but you get the idea). Same with timecode, it is not neccessarily a digital signal - smpte timecode is striped onto analogue tape. Just remember that everythign that happens in the digital world is inspired by what is possible in the analogue world, and has its counterpart there. Once you understand how things happen in the analogue domain, you will better understand what is going on in your daw.