[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Franco

LOL, Yeah, hopefully they'll go back to read what staudio said and realize there's a difference between the center information and the center image, and that you don't know what you're talking about.

You still don't have an accurate thought to support your view as to why headphones aren't as accurate as speakers for translating the center image; staudio pointed it out very clearly - defined why headphones can trick you into hearing an "uneven" center image and he then explains how he compensates for it.

...there's a difference between the center "channel" (signal/frequencies) and what is perceived as the center "image."

Dude, again, I'm clear on the difference between the middle "channel" and "image". That differences has been the crux of my argument:

(*I suppose we could debate my use of the word "channel" and your use of the word "image"; but that's boring and pointless because both are completely accurate. I would like to point out, however, that in headphones, there really isn't a center image (but there IS a center channel), which is pretty much the crux of my point, actually, and one of the primary obstacles of mixing in the ol' ear-goggles.)

As I said, STEREO AUDIO (even in headphones) HAS A MIDDLE CHANNEL. This is an indisputable fact (although you certainly made an effort to the contrary).

I also said that headphones localize it poorly (also a fact). Which is to say that headphones do not accurately recreate the center image. Actually, as I said above, listening in headphones pretty much eliminates the center image. Yes, you can hear the stuff that's panned center, but it's a completely different listening experience; instead of hearing the sonics in 3 dimensions on a soundstage in front of you, you hear it floating around in the center of your head. There simply is no image, nor is there any concrete localization of the center channel information.

But the mid channel doesn't go anywhere; it can't, as it's part of the stereo format (regardless of playback system).

This is such basic stuff that my mind is completely boggled as to how it could be going over your head. Maybe my writing is unclear, although looking back over my posts, I'm not sure how it could be stated any clearer. It's just so damn simple and basic.

Originally Posted by Franco

You thought you knew better and I simply proved your point wrong, which is that there's a difference between the center "channel" (signal/frequencies) and what is perceived as the center "image."

We can go on for days because you're one of those people who simply doesn't like to admit when they're wrong!

Your "proof" thus far has consisted of replies of "LOL, dude, LOL". Hardly a convincing argument. As for co-signing staudio, well, you may have chosen a losing battle there. I hate to drag him into this, cuz he seems competent and for the most part, on point, but there's a couple issues with his post:

Headphones make the stereo image seem wider than it is. Effects like reverb and delay are more noticeable and therefore you mix in too little. Low end frequencies/balance are harder to get exactly right so you have to get used to being conservative with the kick/bass level. With cans, vocals and other stuff never sounds exactly in the center (too me) even though they are. Vocal automation is very hard to get right, because you can hear the vocal clearly at almost any level so judging loudness is difficult. Stuff usually sounds more present and clear with headphones so you can often get fooled into thinking something is fine when it actually lacks definition/clarity. Once I got used to my cans it all became second nature and now I use my headphones for reference with confidence.

Headphones often do make the stereo image seem wider, that is true, but only when you're dealing with a poorly-treated room. Anyone who's ever sat in a well-treated control room with great monitors knows that headphones simply can't TOUCH the depth of sound field, width, and even HEIGHT of a good loudspeaker rig.

When mixing in cans, ambient effects like reverb are actually often applied TOO HEAVILY, because you're not hearing the natural ambience of the room you're mixing in (effectively making the audio in the cans "drier", thus requiring MORE, not LESS, spatial processing).

The accuracy of the low end varies dramatically from headphone to headphone (in particular, between open and closed designs), there simply are no blanket truths there, other than cans' general inability to reproduce extreme low frequencies.

As he said, "With cans, vocals and other stuff never sounds exactly in the center even though they are". Again, this is the non-existence of the center image (remember, the middle channel has NOT GONE ANYWHERE because it CAN'T!!). Again, the crux of my point.

As for stuff sounding more clear and present, well, that's another issue with deficiencies in the acoustics of the room. If he's hearing cloudy, unclear images coming out of his loudspeakers, his room is probably muddy in the low mids, likely a cause of too many reflections. Listening more quietly on the loud speakers, as well as some basic room treatment, would go a long way in correcting this issue.

I'm fully confident that staudio can produce fine mixes with his headphones; again, I'm not die-hard opposed to mixing in cans. I'm just saying it's waaaaaay harder, and I've yet to meet a single person who mixes better in cans than he does in loudspeakers.

That pretty much sums everything I could possibly ever want to say about mixing with cans, so I'll respectfully bow out now. If you feel the need to reply, be my guest, just try to offer up something meaningful in the way of a coherent argument instead of childishly responding with another "LOL, dude, you're wrong".

I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong when you prove me so. I've done so plenty of times in the past.