Gearslutz.com - View Single Post - Is there a sound difference in various DAW's ?

Nash_Dred · 10th September 2008

The answer is no and yes.

I agree that identical audio files with no sample rate conversion or dither applied will remain identical when exported from different DAWs.

So how do they differ? The real difference comes when you combine or "mix" two or more audio signals, adjust levels or pan, and sum the audio down somehow (either stereo, multi-channel, or even mono). I know a lot of this has been posted already, and I thank those of you who responded with educated answers, but I wanted to lay it all out in one concise, simple explanation. Here's the scoop:

There are several reasons why different DAWs sound different, but the biggest one is probably the digital mechanics of the mix engine. Despite appearances, faders and pan knobs can have different effects from system to system, even when using identical positions. Some DAWs even allow you to adjust internal pan lawor fader gain. Another aspect of the digital mixer is internal bit depth, and although I believe this issue gets more fuss than it deserves, it is nonetheless a viable factor. There are a number of ways different DAWs manage internal headroom, with calculation types including (but far from limited to) 16- and 24-bit "fixed-point" math, to the more advanced 32- and 48-bit "floating-point" operations. The newest release of Sonar even claims to use "64-bit End to End" processing (thankfully, I'm a Mac owner, and have not had the means, time, or interest to check this out for myself).

There's a simple method for testing this: Import or record a few audio files in your favorite DAW. Adjust levels and pan, but do not do any editing or use any plug-ins. Write down all fader and pan positions (most DAWs will give you a number) and bounce with no dither or sample rate conversion. Now open up another DAW, import the raw audio files, and set the digital mixer to the exact settings used before. Bounce the mix (remember not to use any dither or sample rate conversion). Now open a new session in either DAW and import both bounces. Position the two files so that they are perfectly in sync, and flip the phase on either. If there is truly no difference between the mechanics of each DAW then the two audio files should cancel out, leaving silence.

Probably the biggest factor, especially when we're talking about audible difference, is dither. Without going into a very long and boring explanation, I'll suffice to say that dither is the process used to overcome the main shortcoming of digital audio system: the inability to accurately reproduce extremely low level signal changes. Dither introduces a small amount of noise to "smooth out" these rough low-level signal changes and reduce distortion. There are a virtually unlimited number of methods for doing this, and most DAWs use a proprietary algorithm. If you're really interested in learning about dither, join the Audio Engineering Society, or at least read some of their technical documents (I'd suggest putting on a pot of coffee first).

Alright, alright; enough with the technical jargon! The real question is "can you hear the difference?" and the answer is usually no. Most people are not going to be able to tell a real difference between DAWs, especially in a blind test. Moreover, the list of things that will give you a good end result starts with talent, instruments, and a good recording environment. The exact precision of your recording equipment or software is pretty far down on the list if you ask me. Remember that Sgt. Pepper was recorded on a four-track.

With that being said, I'll leave you with this:

When I first began to really branch out into software I was working as manager of the local "big-box" music store. I was a long-time Pro Tools user, but I was hearing a lot about another program called Logic. After obtaining a copy, I became fond of the program and began recommending it to customers who were becoming frustrated with some of the limitations of its Digidesign cousin. After a few months I started getting questions about the "sound of Logic". Customers were commenting that they noticed their mixes sounding "warmer" or having a "more defined low end" in Logic than in Pro Tools. I would assure them that there was no mathematical reasoning to account for such a difference. Secretly I was agreeing.

10th September 2008	#46
Nash_Dred Gear maniac Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 196	The answer is no and yes. I agree that identical audio files with no sample rate conversion or dither applied will remain identical when exported from different DAWs. So how do they differ? The real difference comes when you combine or "mix" two or more audio signals, adjust levels or pan, and sum the audio down somehow (either stereo, multi-channel, or even mono). I know a lot of this has been posted already, and I thank those of you who responded with educated answers, but I wanted to lay it all out in one concise, simple explanation. Here's the scoop: There are several reasons why different DAWs sound different, but the biggest one is probably the digital mechanics of the mix engine. Despite appearances, faders and pan knobs can have different effects from system to system, even when using identical positions. Some DAWs even allow you to adjust internal pan lawor fader gain. Another aspect of the digital mixer is internal bit depth, and although I believe this issue gets more fuss than it deserves, it is nonetheless a viable factor. There are a number of ways different DAWs manage internal headroom, with calculation types including (but far from limited to) 16- and 24-bit "fixed-point" math, to the more advanced 32- and 48-bit "floating-point" operations. The newest release of Sonar even claims to use "64-bit End to End" processing (thankfully, I'm a Mac owner, and have not had the means, time, or interest to check this out for myself). There's a simple method for testing this: Import or record a few audio files in your favorite DAW. Adjust levels and pan, but do not do any editing or use any plug-ins. Write down all fader and pan positions (most DAWs will give you a number) and bounce with no dither or sample rate conversion. Now open up another DAW, import the raw audio files, and set the digital mixer to the exact settings used before. Bounce the mix (remember not to use any dither or sample rate conversion). Now open a new session in either DAW and import both bounces. Position the two files so that they are perfectly in sync, and flip the phase on either. If there is truly no difference between the mechanics of each DAW then the two audio files should cancel out, leaving silence. Probably the biggest factor, especially when we're talking about audible difference, is dither. Without going into a very long and boring explanation, I'll suffice to say that dither is the process used to overcome the main shortcoming of digital audio system: the inability to accurately reproduce extremely low level signal changes. Dither introduces a small amount of noise to "smooth out" these rough low-level signal changes and reduce distortion. There are a virtually unlimited number of methods for doing this, and most DAWs use a proprietary algorithm. If you're really interested in learning about dither, join the Audio Engineering Society, or at least read some of their technical documents (I'd suggest putting on a pot of coffee first). Alright, alright; enough with the technical jargon! The real question is "can you hear the difference?" and the answer is usually no. Most people are not going to be able to tell a real difference between DAWs, especially in a blind test. Moreover, the list of things that will give you a good end result starts with talent, instruments, and a good recording environment. The exact precision of your recording equipment or software is pretty far down on the list if you ask me. Remember that Sgt. Pepper was recorded on a four-track. With that being said, I'll leave you with this: When I first began to really branch out into software I was working as manager of the local "big-box" music store. I was a long-time Pro Tools user, but I was hearing a lot about another program called Logic. After obtaining a copy, I became fond of the program and began recommending it to customers who were becoming frustrated with some of the limitations of its Digidesign cousin. After a few months I started getting questions about the "sound of Logic". Customers were commenting that they noticed their mixes sounding "warmer" or having a "more defined low end" in Logic than in Pro Tools. I would assure them that there was no mathematical reasoning to account for such a difference. Secretly I was agreeing.